Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 36

Thread: Breeding Question

  1. #1
    Nisai Benkei's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like

    Breeding Question

    Hi , I'm trying to breed this year and have a few questions.first I have separated the females and males I want to breed. I have both Doitsu sanke and D Showa to mix with scaled of same. Is it a neccesity to NOT mix Doitsu with Doitsu? I know some claim about a 25% still born rate or some such problem.

    If I pair sanke to Showa and keep black and white babies until later will the quality be lower of the individual types?

    Do I just introduce the males and sit and watch or do I need to do anything else?

    If I wanted to put the females to sleep (not the first time i had to use clove oil. Sandy helped me do a surgery once) and squeeze the eggs out, what considerations are most important?

    Also do I have to add malachite green? I read that salting to a certain degree gave higher birth rates.
    Last edited by Benkei; 03-19-2012 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Another Q

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,270
    Post Thanks / Like
    Since the more experienced folks have not responded, I'll give you my thoughts for consideration.

    Doitsu are typically bred to wagoi because the doitsu gene combo is lethal.

    Why cross Sanke and Showa?... To obtain improved Showa offspring. Making that cross to get lower quality Sanke makes no sense. Keep only the black fry.

    Pretty much... if they are in good condition, it is right time of year and there is spawning material in the tank. (Spawning material is not essential [see spawning at shows], but some believe it increases the success of the spawn, and it certainly makes it easier to deal with the eggs.)

    Don't do it. Hand stripping eggs is for the highly experienced. Even top breeders sometimes injure their koi in the process.

    No. But, adding MG reduces the spread of fungus on the eggs. I would suggest using Methylene Blue instead. Malachite Green is a suspected carcinogen which might increase tumors and deformities in fish exposed to it as fry. Methylene Blue has issues of its own, but I think it has not been established to be as potentially harmful as MG. (Somebody know the latest research?) However, if you have space to raise only a limited number of fry, and not the many thousands that could hatch out, why bother? You will need to reduce the population arbitrarily in any event.

    Every year we hear of people doing some backyard breeding of koi for fun. We hear from far fewer who actually enjoyed the project and had success. It typically results in poor to mediocre grade pond fish at the cost of substantial time and money. Few purposefully do it more than two seasons. I think folks who breed aquarium fish have more fun, less work, less expense and better results.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ben, this is a technical question and a husbandry one. I can give you details on the lethal gene as it pertains to scale type ( ZNA did an article in a few issues ) but you really need to hook up with Mat for this instruction regarding stripping eggs.

    There will be two ZNA meetings-- one with Shintaro who is an expert breeder and I've seen him stripping koi as easly as we might tie our shoe laces! So look for that meeting he appears at during the TriSate ZNA chapter events. Secondly, we will be having an event at Matt's farm held by the Potomac ZNA chapter. You can watch for that annoucement as well. Both will likely be held beyond the timing of your needs so get hold of Matt and ask for some professional instruction. Best, JR

  4. #4
    Nisai Benkei's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ben, this is a technical question and a husbandry one. I can give you details on the lethal gene as it pertains to scale type ( ZNA did an article in a few issues ) but you really need to hook up with Mat for this instruction regarding stripping eggs.
    I'm James but I'd be deeply appreciative of said technical info. Is Mat a Louisiana local as well? Maybe I met him at Purdin the last Harvest. Bill from Purdin suggested that I keep like to like.

    So a mixed Showa-sanke spawn will result in better showa but worse sanke.....

    I thought of the same thing Mike of abitrarily reducing the number by not using it. It seems either lose more to mold or some say lose more to deformity. Likewise with doitsu gene.
    Last edited by Benkei; 03-20-2012 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Spelling

  5. #5
    Nisai Benkei's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just realized why you called me Ben.... It's part of my username. Benkei is a Japanese character who was said to be a giant of a warrior. So, naturally I named my 12 in tall chihuahua Benkei....
    Last edited by Benkei; 03-20-2012 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Spelling

  6. #6
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Post Thanks / Like

    Doitsu genetics

    JR,

    Is Doitsu a dominant or recessive mutation?

  7. #7
    Nisai Benkei's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    One more question: what constitutes a flock spawn exactly? That is , if I have 4 females of the same type and 3 males of same is that a flock spawn? Is flock relevant to types or numbers?

  8. #8
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,096
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    JR,

    Is Doitsu a dominant or recessive mutation?
    There's a scientific paper relating to scale cover inheritance on the FAO website

    SEMINAR/STUDY TOUR IN THE U.S.S.R. ON GENETIC SELECTION AND HYBRIDIZATION OF CULTIVATED FISHES

    Once you have a goood basic first year genetics study, it is a good starting point for understanding the recessive/dominance relationships. Despite being for food carp, it is transferable to koi.

  9. #9
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    There's a scientific paper relating to scale cover inheritance on the FAO website

    SEMINAR/STUDY TOUR IN THE U.S.S.R. ON GENETIC SELECTION AND HYBRIDIZATION OF CULTIVATED FISHES

    Once you have a goood basic first year genetics study, it is a good starting point for understanding the recessive/dominance relationships. Despite being for food carp, it is transferable to koi.
    So there are two pairs of autosomal unlinked genes which determine the type of scaliness in carp.

    "S" is scaled (wildtype)
    "s" is "scattered" (recessive gene)
    "N" is "linear" (dominant gene)
    "n" is normal (wildtype)

    And "linear" is what most people think as Doitsu?

    The "S" and "N" gene arose in European carp as a result of two independent mutations.

    "scattered" + "linear" = scaleless.

    The "linear" gene is lethal in the homozygous state.


  10. #10
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    So there are two pairs of autosomal unlinked genes which determine the type of scaliness in carp.

    "S" is scaled (wildtype)
    "s" is "scattered" (recessive gene)
    "N" is "linear" (dominant gene)
    "n" is normal (wildtype)

    And "linear" is what most people think as Doitsu?

    The "S" and "N" gene arose in European carp as a result of two independent mutations.

    "scattered" + "linear" = scaleless.

    The "linear" gene is lethal in the homozygous state.



    yep that is the article and the study. I see doitsu fish in spawns of wagoi regularly.
    So I'll make this point/comment again----

    When you breed koi that of the same variety you will get -- offspring that resemble the parent. If you use unknown specimens of the same variety you will get offspring that look like the parents -- but also many off spring of many different varieties.

    This shows that in phenotypic terms ( looks) that the genes of many varieties exist in the gene pool of fish. In effect, the young are linked to the oyagoi but also the greater gene pool of Nishikigoi. JR

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. shusui koi breeding question
    By Siavash in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-09-, 09:32 AM
  2. Amateur Koi Breeding Question
    By alittlepieces in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-05-2011, 04:40 PM
  3. Breeding Question
    By Lelouch513 in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-17-2010, 08:59 PM
  4. Breeding question
    By RKM in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-22-2006, 10:27 PM
  5. breeding
    By jamiequin in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 05-03-2006, 01:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com