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Thread: Anoxic Filters: Updates from anyone?

  1. #51
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    HI Mike,

    I think you misunderstood me. I never meant zero nitrate is bad. I meant if you go for zero nitrate you might get always an impression that all is well in your system. Aerobic bacteria like nitrosomas and nitrobacter are 10000times more efficient in removing ammonia and nitrites as compared to other bacteria such as anaerobic and heterotropic bacteria. To get from 10 to zero nitrates would require more considerable more heterotropic or worst bad anaerobic bacteria in a system and therefore would consume more carbonates than necessary.

    Japanese breeders do not concern themselves in acheiving zero nitrate levels in their growing outdoor and indoor ponds where they house some of their very expensive koi. I just find it unusual why the concern for zero nitrates and what that will accomplish.
    Hi Homer, I had some inkling that was what you meant but thanks for making the clarification. Zero nitrate is a goal as much as infinity is a goal. You try but you never get there but as long as you are getting closer that's what counts. Too much nitrate is a frequent subject sometimes appearing as overactive bio-filters as a topic. This makes nitrates a concern. Between less and more, hands down everyone prefers less. Zero nitrate is wishful thinking, getting as close to zero is desirable but requires different approaches. Water changes, vegetable filters, use of effective or beneficial microorganisms, bakki showers, anoxic filtration, and various combinations of aforementioned approaches can be used towards this goal. I doubt that the Japanese don't appreciate the effect of nitrates. Mud pond readings show very low nitrate readings. I agree they are not obsessed with zero nitrate readings for obvious and practical reasons. Certainly the law of diminishing returns plays a big part. But doesn't lower nitrate readings help toward better sumi development? How about shiroji? How about growth?

    We certainly want the most efficient, and most cost-effective way to lower nitrates. If focusing too much on lowering nitrates leads one to forget keeping pathogens at bay, this certainly isn't cost-effective. If a pond keeper uses an anoxic system and fails to design it well enough to be easily maintained, and doesn't keep up with the maintenance, and this leads to an unhealthy pond, let's be honest and call a spade a spade. Don't blame the idea or theory or principle of anoxic filtration reflexively, look first at the no. 1 variable- the human behind the implementation.

    I've looked at Dr. Novak's blog and there are many successful implementations of anoxic filtration from different people. Let's assume there is a conspiracy and they are all lying. What I'll do then is try to prove them wrong by trying their system out the way I propose to try it. Let me ask- and I'm not forcing anyone - is there anyone else interested in trying it? I've laid out my arguments already. Who's biting?

  2. #52
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Hi Homer, I had some inkling that was what you meant but thanks for making the clarification. Zero nitrate is a goal as much as infinity is a goal. You try but you never get there but as long as you are getting closer that's what counts. Too much nitrate is a frequent subject sometimes appearing as overactive bio-filters as a topic. This makes nitrates a concern. Between less and more, hands down everyone prefers less. Zero nitrate is wishful thinking, getting as close to zero is desirable but requires different approaches. Water changes, vegetable filters, use of effective or beneficial microorganisms, bakki showers, anoxic filtration, and various combinations of aforementioned approaches can be used towards this goal. I doubt that the Japanese don't appreciate the effect of nitrates. Mud pond readings show very low nitrate readings. I agree they are not obsessed with zero nitrate readings for obvious and practical reasons. Certainly the law of diminishing returns plays a big part. But doesn't lower nitrate readings help toward better sumi development? How about shiroji? How about growth?

    We certainly want the most efficient, and most cost-effective way to lower nitrates. If focusing too much on lowering nitrates leads one to forget keeping pathogens at bay, this certainly isn't cost-effective. If a pond keeper uses an anoxic system and fails to design it well enough to be easily maintained, and doesn't keep up with the maintenance, and this leads to an unhealthy pond, let's be honest and call a spade a spade. Don't blame the idea or theory or principle of anoxic filtration reflexively, look first at the no. 1 variable- the human behind the implementation.

    I've looked at Dr. Novak's blog and there are many successful implementations of anoxic filtration from different people. Let's assume there is a conspiracy and they are all lying. What I'll do then is try to prove them wrong by trying their system out the way I propose to try it. Let me ask- and I'm not forcing anyone - is there anyone else interested in trying it? I've laid out my arguments already. Who's biting?
    The concept of anoxic filtration is based on both chemical and biological filtration. If you read the articles it says that using is worth it because there is no more need for water change and no need for a different biological filter as it is just effective. However, any biofilter including the anoxic basket will always be in constant decline. The rate of decline will depend on many factors such as how much pollutant and the kind of pollutants the anoxic baskets will adsorb and how fast small detrius is captured in the anoxic filtration. The need to do spring cleaning and change of the anoxic basket confirm just that. Every pond will accumulate some sort of pollution, whether it comes from the polluted air we breathe in the city or from the ash content in the food we give or from the dissolved organic compounds that dissolve from the waste. Maybe some of these can be take care of the anoxic baskets but surely not 100 percent as Latterite and cat litter is no miracle absorber of all sorts. Therefore the need for water change to dilute pollutant is always advisable. And if we agree that water change is still necessary in a highly stock environment to grow the koi to the best of its abilities, then why not change water where most pollution gets captured

    I have seen articles of anoxic filtration whereby even in a very high stocking level the water showed very good parameters and very clear water without the hassle of water change. Is it the holy grail? Maybe for a ponder but to a serious koi hobbyist who wish their koi to grow and develop to the best of the koi potential this will take serious consideration. The fact that I do not know of any GC keepers including in Japan employing purely the anoxic method of filtration proves my point.

  3. #53
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I think aiming for very low nitrate levels is a good thing. I agree with Sacicu that the only reason to consider anoxic filtration is to reduce water changes. It cannot accomplish anything for the koikeeper that water changes cannot accomplish with fewer risk factors. If I lived where water was not readily available or was prohibitively expensive, I would have to consider how to adapt an anoxic concept to my pond. I'd probably also consider an ozone-based water regeneration system (wholly independent of the pond) so I could re-use water as much as possible.


    Loco: I know we've had this conversation before, but I'll say it again. Your low nitrate level is not due to the bog garden. It's those 15% per day water changes that keep nitrate at undetectable levels. ...BTW, the Cannas look great!

  4. #54
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    I have seen articles of anoxic filtration whereby even in a very high stocking level the water showed very good parameters and very clear water without the hassle of water change. Is it the holy grail? Maybe for a ponder but to a serious koi hobbyist who wish their koi to grow and develop to the best of the koi potential this will take serious consideration. The fact that I do not know of any GC keepers including in Japan employing purely the anoxic method of filtration proves my point.
    Then we will simply have to wait for a koi raised the anoxic way to win the AJKS GC before we embrace anoxic filtration wholeheartedly.

  5. #55
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I agree with Sacicu that the only reason to consider anoxic filtration is to reduce water changes. I
    My number one reason though isn't to reduce water changes. I'd like to have as little nitrate coming out from the biological filtration process to start with. This way, I don't have to allow nitrate levels to accumulate before having to lower it by water changes. Sounds like a cliche, but I would rather be pro-active than reactive to nitrate levels in the pond water.

  6. #56
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    I checked Dr. Novak's blog today and here are his thoughts on combining the anoxic filtration system with other filtration systems:

    Anoxic Filtration System: Integrating AFS with other systems…

    I must say, either it's coincidence or Dr. Novak has a good set of eyes and ears.

    My reply, Dr. Novak: It's too much for me to invest in a good pre-filter. I can't afford to make major mods, but I can tweak my system. Am hoping to just add a small anoxic setup after the 2nd biofilter, with the little space I can spare, as a start.

    As far as pre-filtering goes, I'd like to install a reverse sieve to filter water leaving the sump. This at least filters particles > 200 microns. But sourcing a wire-wedge screen at retail quantity is difficult. So now I'll have to make do, hoping fines are much reduced leaving the 2nd biofilter, the j-mats having filtered out many fines.

  7. #57
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Yerrag: Novak has interesting ideas worth thinking about. I remain interested in how the anoxic approach works in practice in ordinary folks' ponds. Be careful, however, in accepting everything he says. He often makes absolute assertions in his writings that are simply wrong and established to be wrong in scientific studies going back 30 years. He also says things that are literally accurate but so incomplete as to be misleading to hobbyists. He is a man with a mission to convert the world to his belief in his anoxic system. As is often the case with true believers seeking converts, things are said and done to accomplish the goal without regard to inconvenient inconsistent facts and scientific knowledge.

  8. #58
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Mike, I share your attitude towards taking things with a grain of salt. There are just too many myths floating around that not only affect our koi in our ponds, but ourselves that taken straight up would take leave of our health and of our finances. The worst are those fashioned of academic and scientific cloth, and worn by emperors of our times. A skeptical mind is a good defense of a trusting soul.

  9. #59
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Flash: 55 oz. API Laterite at 50% off Regular Price

    Good deal- normally sells for $20+ Good for 6 biocenosis baskets.

  10. #60
    Tosai
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    Hey all, I've been looking at the Anoxic system for about a year now and was going to incorporate it in my new pond build, however regardless of trying just about every cat litter I can find I haven't found one here in Perth, Western Australia that will do the job, ie stay in a solid granule.
    As regard to water changes the Bio-Filtration takes care the ammonia-nitrate cycle but what takes care of the pheromones if not the water changes in the Anoxic system.

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