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Thread: Doitsu Goshiki

  1. #1
    Tosai
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    Doitsu Goshiki

    Hi all, I'm in a state of confusion here, nothing out of the ordinary though. One of the main traits of the Goshiki and other Koi like the Ochiba is the "Netting" which they get from the Asagi. Now I have been looking at pictures of Doitsu versions and of course there is no netting because there are no scales.
    So how can they carry on the name "Goshiki, Ochiba "etc when one of the main characteristics of the fish is missing. Surely thats like a Tancho without the spot.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    It's all a question of how to draw the boundaries of what gets included under a varietal label. Not all wagoi Goshiki have netting. The famous Matsunosuke Goshiki was like a Kohaku with some blue scales highlighting the shiroji. There was no netting. Just glistening white scales. It was considered a Goshiki because it had dorsal red patterning on an Asagi-influenced ground. Someone could have given it an entirely different varietal label, but it was simply a refinement leading toward Kohaku. If it makes you feel better about the ambiguity of varietal labels, just think of Doitsu Goshiki as a variety unto itself, not simply a Goshiki without scales.

    BTW, sometimes I like the netting effect on Ochiba, but mostly I do not. Netting can be a passing thing. At certain temperatures the sumi is down, eliminating the netting effect. At other temperatures the same fish will show the netting. I often prefer Ochiba when no netting shows. The clean, solid color ground makes the patterning stand out so much more. It is a more refined look to my eye, while the netting has a wildness to it that harks back to common carp. I know some judges look for netting in the same way having 3-colors on the head of a Showa is considered a positive. It's something that I do not see the same way.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Variety names are usually chosen by the breeder. Sometimes they relate to the genealogy lineage sometimes not. Doitsu is a fairly common trait in koi with a number of scalation types occurring. Breeding two normal scaled koi can produce a few scaleless individuals and breeding two doitsu parents can produce some normal scaled offspring.

    In the original crossing of german scaled koi with asagi at the beginning of the last century the scaleless offspring came to be called shusui although at first they were called doitsu asagi. There are many examples of the scaled or doitsu version of the same type of koi having different names rather than just being called doitsu.... Perhaps someone could make a list for us of some that have different names.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Wasn't it a stretch, that Goshiki initially got it's name because of the "five" colors? Tho it's changed many times from when it first started, five colors is still a dream in it's scaled versions.
    So it seems with this variety, the controversy should continue in it's german scale or leather carp versions.
    Dick Benbow

  5. #5
    Oyagoi
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    to find a really nice doitsu ochiba it will have the black "netting"" around the "brown" pattern
    really neat to see like a black marker drawing the border of the pattern or color with in the lines
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  6. #6
    Tosai
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    As always Mike you have answered in a way that makes it easy to absorb, thanks.

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