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Thread: Some Question of Mark Gardner: PURDIN SPAWNING

  1. #1
    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Some Question of Mark Gardner: PURDIN SPAWNING

    Mark Gardner, has posted series of articles about Purdin Koi Farm Spawning.


    http://nishikigoi.life/2018/04/22/pu...bout-to-begin/

    http://nishikigoi.life/2018/04/28/pu...awning-update/

    http://nishikigoi.life/2018/04/29/pu...ning-progress/

    http://nishikigoi.life/2018/04/30/pu...-to-mud-ponds/

    There are several things that I am wondered about.

    1) Using Pool Chlorine to Sterilise pond. Generally, mud ponds are Sterilised by lime.

    2) Using Cotton Seed Meal as Fertilizer. Farms are using rotten or semi-rotten cattle manure to help live foods and phytoplanktons blooming.

    3) using the liquid chemical (NPK) fertilizer.

    4) using canola oil to covering the surface of the water pond for killing predator insects.

    I asked from Mark about chlorine He said this will be gassed off soon, and about the oil and preparing pond He said it will take 4 days and description are on the blog.

    Does Anyone can help with these process, Honestly, this is for the first time I saw these steps. and was a little bit strange for me.

  2. #2
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Chlorine is a disinfectant. In Australia several koi keepers use it to sterilise eggs, rather than using Methylene Blue or Malachite Green. It is used to reduce/prevent the formation of fungus growth that will kill eggs.

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    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Hi Reza,

    I don't have any experience with Chlorine as a sterilizing agent, but I may consider it next year. If they use it at Purdin koi farm I'm sure they've done their homework and that it works well. The chlorine will indeed gas off, just not sure on how long it would take.

    There are a lot of things that you can use as fertilizer for phytoplankton, daphina, moina. Among these are chicken/cow/pig manure (most breeders in Japan favor chicken manure) and they also have a product called Mukkuri Waaku which include rice bran, powdered crab shell, and brewer's yeast which seems to work quite well. You can also use spirulina powder, any sort of wheat or rice bran, yeast, mineral fertilizers, or alfalfa. Many pelleted foods for horses are made with alfafa and work well.

    I wouldn't recommend manure in any high amount as it can really foul water quality and introduce bacteria that might be good for the moina to eat, but not good for the fry. You might want to experiment with different combinations of the above to see what works well for you.

    Covering the pond with oil to kill off diving beetles and dragon fly larvae is pretty widely used in aquaculture in the US. It works extremely well, and canola oil (after it breaks down) infuses the daphnia/moina and makes them more nutritious for the fry.

    Hope that helps!
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

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    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Chlorine is a disinfectant. In Australia several koi keepers use it to sterilise eggs, rather than using Methylene Blue or Malachite Green. It is used to reduce/prevent the formation of fungus growth that will kill eggs.
    @mrbradleybradley,

    Maybe they measure the concentration of Chlorine in water before releasing frys, but what is the safe level of Chlorine for 4 days old frys? Also in hatching process, you said Chlorine applied for sterilizing eggs. I will be appreciated if you could describe some of this process. Please.

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    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    @mrbradleybradley,

    Maybe they measure the concentration of Chlorine in water before releasing frys, but what is the safe level of Chlorine for 4 days old frys? Also in hatching process, you said Chlorine applied for sterilizing eggs. I will be appreciated if you could describe some of this process. Please.
    I think the important point would be to ensure the Chlorine levels are low enough to allow for phytoplankton to grow and flourish first before introducing the fry. Moina and Daphnia are very sensitive to Chlorine, so if they are able to grow then the fry should be fine.
    Last edited by Brian; 05-02-2018 at 11:04 AM.
    Brian Sousa
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    Sansai Reza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Hi Reza,

    I don't have any experience with Chlorine as a sterilizing agent, but I may consider it next year. If they use it at Purdin koi farm I'm sure they've done their homework and that it works well. The chlorine will indeed gas off, just not sure on how long it would take.

    There are a lot of things that you can use as fertilizer for phytoplankton, daphina, moina. Among these are chicken/cow/pig manure (most breeders in Japan favor chicken manure) and they also have a product called Mukkuri Waaku which include rice bran, powdered crab shell, and brewer's yeast which seems to work quite well. You can also use spirulina powder, any sort of wheat or rice bran, yeast, mineral fertilizers, or alfalfa. Many pelleted foods for horses are made with alfafa and work well.

    I wouldn't recommend manure in any high amount as it can really foul water quality and introduce bacteria that might be good for the moina to eat, but not good for the fry. You might want to experiment with different combinations of the above to see what works well for you.

    Covering the pond with oil to kill off diving beetles and dragon fly larvae is pretty widely used in aquaculture in the US. It works extremely well, and canola oil (after it breaks down) infuses the daphnia/moina and makes them more nutritious for the fry.

    Hope that helps!
    @Brian

    The question is applying Chlorine will be dangerous for Phytoplankton Blooming. If there are no phytoplanktons as starting step of the food chain in ponds Zooplanktons will not appear or will appear later. Feeding brine shrimp nauplii also is so costly especially in Mud pond with the wide surface.

    I understand that Oil over the surface will prevent DragonFly to lay eggs, or Beetles to survive but, Isn't it a trap for frys? How long Oil will stay over water?

    The jar of ‘Tackle Buster’ on Bill's hand is chemical Fertilizer, and I guess this fertilizer adds Phosphorus to Water because this is the only factor that could not be produced in pond or comes to pond from the air. it is also necessary at this stage for blooming phytoplanktons.

    Also the only thing which I can guess about the applying Cotton Seed Meal, Is fermentation. But if my guess is correct, next questions are, do fermentation microorganisms good enough for fry feeding? the Fermentation Carbon Dioxide isn't harmful for frys?

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    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Hi Reza,

    Brine Shrimp don't do too well in fresh water anyway.

    Daphnia produce resting eggs too that seem to become active once the water conditions are favorable for them. I'm not sure how chlorine affects them though. They may be able to survive it, or they may not. You can maintain a separate culture outside of the pond and then "seed" the pond once the Chlorine has dissipated. If you have a container of 100 liters or more, it's pretty easy grow daphnia and get them to reproduce fairly easily with a little effort. Can you buy Daphnia cultures over there?

    If you are growing them in a container, it's important that the smallest ones that are just born have a ready food source. Yeast is very good as a first started food if you activate it in warm water first, then distribute it around the container. The larger daphnia will need green water to survive and won't last too long without it.

    You can use any of the methods I listed before to make an environment where algae will grow and turn the water green. They will take a while to start working though, so in the meantime you can "cheat" and get green water immediately by putting spinach, grass, or flat green leaves into a blender with a little water and mixing thoroughly until the solid content is completely liquefied. Let this mix set in the sun for a little while, then add more water and stir and distribute it around the container and you will have instant green water which the adult daphnia can eat. Make sure to activate a little yeast as well so that the new offspring have a ready food source as well.

    If you fertilize your fry pond while cultivating daphnia in containers, then you should have nice green water that you can "seed" with the daphnia you've cultivated once you have a good population.

    Fermentation microorganisms...not sure about that one. I think it's best to get as much bacterial, fungal and algal food that the as a source for your phytoplankton as possible. I would think that the cottonseed meal would be a fertilizer that breaks down gradually overtime and provides a steady source of nutrients to keep the water green.

    You can continue with this mix in your container until the water turns green on its own
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

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    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post

    I understand that Oil over the surface will prevent DragonFly to lay eggs, or Beetles to survive but, Isn't it a trap for frys? How long Oil will stay over water?

    The jar of ‘Tackle Buster’ on Bill's hand is chemical Fertilizer, and I guess this fertilizer adds Phosphorus to Water because this is the only factor that could not be produced in pond or comes to pond from the air. it is also necessary at this stage for blooming phytoplanktons.

    Also the only thing which I can guess about the applying Cotton Seed Meal, Is fermentation. But if my guess is correct, next questions are, do fermentation microorganisms good enough for fry feeding? the Fermentation Carbon Dioxide isn't harmful for frys?
    Forgot to answer these questions! The oil eventually moves off the the side banks from wind and aeration and tends to stay there and breakdown. Doesn't seem to affect the daphnia as they can exist in very low oxygen anyway.

    I've not used tackle buster before but there are a number of "pond fertilizers" available that same 10-52-4 composition which seem to work very well at creating green water.

    Also, the cottonseed meal looks like it would be great at creating a "mulm" layer that phytoplankton would love. I'm going to look at my local co-op and see if I can find it. I don't think that the carbon dioxide would harm the fry at all. During the day the algae creates an abundance of oxygen (but consumes oxygen at night, which is why aeration is important) and I don't think that a slow-moving process like fermentation would add much to the CO2 levels in the water. Maybe someone else might have a better answer for that though.
    Brian Sousa
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    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that the practices at Purdin Koi have been developed over many years and are adapted to the local area. Cottonseed meal, for example, is readily available because cotton is a major crop in the region. (Cottonseed meal gets promoted to gardeners the way composted manure is promoted in areas with a lot of cattle ranching. Hardly ever see it at Florida garden centers, but I have seen it at many garden centers in the "cotton-belt". ) Cottonseed meal typically has a fertilizer analysis of 5-2-1 and is slow release because it decomposes slowly. It would provide continuing nutrition for aquatic life over a long period. The liquid fertilizer would give immediate nutrition for greenwater algae to proliferate. The farm is near Baton Rouge, LA where the climate is warm. Frosts and mild freezes do occur during the winter months, but most winter days the low temperatures are in the 40sF or warmer (above 7C). Ponds do not freeze over, the ground does not freeze and most winter days are comfortable. The rest of the year is hot and really humid. It is expected that daily high temperatures will be in the upper 80sF and 90sF (30-36C) for 6 months of the year. Aquatic life is abundant. Lots of rivers, marshes and swamps mean that there is a huge natural population of aquatic insects ready to move in and lay eggs as soon as there is water.

    What works well and inexpensively (comparatively) for Purdin would need to be adapted to local conditions elsewhere. ....The climate is a big reason why Purdin produces larger tosai and nisai than koi farms in the northern U.S. They have a longer growing season at higher water temperatures, so the young fish can use a lot of food.

    Regarding the use of chlorine, since it is being applied in ponds with soil, it seems to me that it would be exhausted rather rapidly with all the organics. I doubt there is any detectable chlorine after 24 hours. It would eliminate a lot of the parasites and critters that would make a quick meal of newly released fry, but I don't think it would do anything more than that.

  10. #10
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post

    What works well and inexpensively (comparatively) for Purdin would need to be adapted to local conditions elsewhere. ....The climate is a big reason why Purdin produces larger tosai and nisai than koi farms in the northern U.S. They have a longer growing season at higher water temperatures, so the young fish can use a lot of food.
    Great point Mike. Best to source local with something that works well for you, and work on tweaking it for optimal results.
    Brian Sousa
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