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Thread: Getting rid of Koi Doots???

  1. #1
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Question Getting rid of Koi Doots???

    Another newbie question regarding getting rid of koi waste from bottom drains in my planned pond.

    Can I have all the bottom drains connected to a sump chamber that is not connected to the filtration system. Basically, just saying alooooooooha to the koi doots without having to circulate dirty waste water within the system. And instead incorporate a series of piping that will take pond water out from say the bottom one third of the pond directly to the pre-filtration system, then the filter(s) then a trickle tower and finally back to the pond? Is this an acceptable practice? Are there any disadvantages of a setup like this? Thanks again.


  2. #2
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I quess i've heard koi wastes now being refered to yet another "term".

    But it's still the same stuff, kinda like a rose by any other name type thinking.

    one of the first pioneers to get the "stuff" out of the pond was a japanese who engineered the koshihara method. Basically it was a rectangle shaped pond with a shallow end and a deep end. The shallow end had the waterfall/return line piped to it to create a current to sweep the waste into the deep end. A drain pipe in the end would collect the waste and with the introduction of a constant
    trickle cause the overflow to empty out to waste.

    after that a sump was Designed apart from the filter system with stand pipes in which the keeper would pull the pipe length off an unglued coupler in a sump
    causing the collection pits in the bottom of the pond to have their collection sucked out and deposited into the sump. after the sump quit running the pipes were slipped back to fit and water allowed to clear. when nothing of value was found collected. ( small tosai could get sucked up some times) then another set of stand pipes were pulled to drain the filthy water to drain.

    With today's modern filters that use vortex systems this is also accomplished
    with plumping from the drain pipes from the pond's bottom to mid level vortex entry chambers.

    Keep in mind the Bacteria house filters are suppose to have this "yuk" to feed the filters.

    what I'd like you to learn is this.

    a system that eliminates the waste as a whole instead of chopping it up thru a pump and then into the filters is way ahead of the game. Mechanical filters
    that eliminates the solids prior to filtration help to accomplish your goal to allow filters to be just filters. Anything you can do to design a system that traps the wastes so you can DAILY eliminate it prior to anything else is your goal. I cringe when I see systems that has a pump pull the wastes up from the bottom, create a tiny cloud of waste and then blow it into a filter. Even if the filter is in the vortex system, I'll ask and hear it gets dumped as needed or at best every weekend. if you pay all this money and make all this effort to trap the stuff why do you let it sit for a week. Mine gets drained daily in the winter and twice daily in summer! ( yes I agree I'm fanatical but my koi's health comes first and ya know something, my health does alot better when theirs is good too! I stress faster than they do! Mahalo

  3. #3
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Talking

    Dick,

    If I understand your response correctly, the initial concept I have been thinking about of eliminating the "doots" daily and separating/isolating the water filtration system to do nothing else but filter water is a GOOD one. Thanks. I am still thinking of including a secondary solids separator like a seive system (or something) before the filter system. If I plan to suck primarily lower-level to mid-level pond water, do you think its overkill? Are there normally significant amounts of solids free-floating in a pond at those levels? Especially if I have incorporated a good number of wall jets to provide good circulating currents. Thanks for all your help. I'm really serious about trying to make my first one right. One big Aloha.

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    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    AS,
    I disagree. Removing koi turds is in essence nothing more than a cosmetic measure. Koi aren't like people in that the turds only represent a very small fraction of the waste the actually produce. In fact some 80% of koi's waste is released via the gills as ammonia. Removing the turds doesn't reduce the load in the pond all that much.

    I think your approach while containing some good ideas is simply dated. Koi keeping have moved on since then. I believe you would be better off using a more traditional method like a vortex, micro-sieve, or micro lazer-wire sieve for removing the fines.

    My other thought is that when removing the waste as you had planed, you will be pumping it anyway, why not pump it to the filter and save yourself the electricity? This hobby is expensive enough without doing things double.
    B.Scott

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    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    B.Scott, that has to be the evilest Avatar I have ever seen. Makes want to listen to some MegaDeth and Metallica....Rock On!!!!


    KOI-UNIT!!!

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    Oyagoi bekko's Avatar
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    OK, I'll bite... What's a micro laser-wire seive?


    stvee hpokins

  7. #7
    Tategoi
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    Aquitori:

    "B.Scott, that has to be the evilest Avatar I have ever seen."

    I thought the BSs original Avatar was scarier... Just joking, the devil made me do it...pun intended...

    Aloha! Mike

  8. #8
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Question

    B. Scott,

    Thanks for your input. I'm still a little confused though. Even though I plan to flush koi stuffs out to a sump area (gravity fed) no pump required just to remove the heavies at the pond bottom. I will still incorporate another separation system and still cycle pond water through filtration system (some bead system) and then possibly a trickle tower to introduce added oxygen and then back to the pond. I'm hoping this will address other impurities still in the water (I guess like the amonia)
    Question 1: With a seive or micro-seive to handle separation, how often would you need to clean/flush those screens or the vortex? I guess the same concept except that the doots will be in the vortex sump and not at the pond bottom. Hmmmmmm.
    Question 2: When you do water changes, do you run all water out through the vortex/screens or a separate sump area? Sorry, still conceptualizing a effective system to fit in my space allowed that will maximize my pond area. Thanks again.

  9. #9
    Jumbo B.Scott's Avatar
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    Question 1: With a seive or micro-seive to handle separation, how often would you need to clean/flush those screens or the vortex? I guess the same concept except that the doots will be in the vortex sump and not at the pond bottom. Hmmmmmm
    It depends on the system. Also it depends on how often you should clean it and how often you must clean it. In the growing season as fish are being fed, it is best to flush every day. This is better for your water quality and better for you fish. In some systems it is also needed to keep the screens from clogging and failing to work. Other systems are less critical and can go for weeks in an emergency.
    Something like the Answer is mounted in a vortex and the detritus sinks to the bottom of the vortex which acts as a sump. New water tends to pass over the crap and is passed on to the next chamber. The down side is the increased use of power for the pump that keeps the screens clean.

    Something like the laser-cut parabolic screens (EA, Estrad, etc.) need no extra pump but as the crap builds up a portion of the water passes through it at the bottom of the screen. Even though you don't need a 2nd pump bear in mind that you will need extra pump head to raise the water 2'-3' from the bottom of the sieve up to the level of the filter.

    There are a number of DIY flat screen sieves that will work quite well and cost little to build but these need constant attention. Failure to clean them means they stop working.

    Do remember that all these system not only remove the stuff that settles on the bottom, but also remove suspended gunk as well. Bits of algae, leaves grass, in short anything that doesn't sink to the bottom but gets sucked into the filter drain.

    The down side I see of flushing from the bottom as I seem to understand you plan to do, is that you need to remove an awful lot of water to get the crap sucked in from any distance from the drain. Sure the stuff will start moving but you sump will be full before most of it finally gets to the drain and into the sump. You then need to allow it to settle after which you will need to pump the water back

    I have a couple of mid-level drains in my pond as well. When building it I was under the impression that I needed to leave the water on the bottom alone in the winter so a "warm layer" would form. Utter twaddle as I see it now. When I change/deepen my pond next time these will be the first things that go. If you ask me the best and only place to remove water is at the bottom.

    Bead filters... I don't like them and would never trust them to get the job done. OK for polishing water but that is all, I would never use them for biofiltration.

    Question 2: When you do water changes, do you run all water out through the vortex/screens or a separate sump area?
    I flush water from the vortex before the Answer filter. A laser-cut screen would have no trouble with you flushing through them though. In general I will close off the filter system, isolate the vortex and allow the entire vortex to drain dry. I then open the valve to the bottom drain and allow the water to rush in one go. This cleans out the pipes and sucks up and crap near the drain. I dump the vortex a second time and allow it to refill with the now clear pond water. I do this every other day in the summer and once a week in the winter. In-between it is enough to pull the drain valve from the vortex open for 15 seconds to allow the settled crap to be washed to waste.

    I hope that about covers it. If you need more specifics please ask.

    B.Scott

  10. #10
    Jumbo Akai-San's Avatar
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    Smile Thanks...

    B. Scott,

    Thanks very much, you have enlightened me to the verses of pond doots control at its finest. I will search much deeper in obtaining the best systems that will help me maintain required water quality with minimal maintenance and power consumption. Any last minute recommendations for my first 10,000 gallon pond? Aloha!

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