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Thread: Unfinished Showa's winning at Japanese shows.

  1. #1
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Unfinished Showa's winning at Japanese shows.

    I was looking at my stack of Japanese magazines and see alot of unfinished "tategoi" Showas winning at shows. Now in Japanese judging why do they seem to consider more of the unfinished Showa? In American judging they seem to rate a more finished fish higher than unfinished.
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    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I,m gonna quess here,because of what you may mean by unfinished. In japan a condition that looks unfinished is called kage ( kaa-gay ) It will always look unfinished and is admired for the look it presents. Perhaps that's what your seeing?

    What I admire about the japanese and don't see in other countries as much is the tendencey to wait AND KNOW that a koi is finished and ready to show. But from a judging stand point an unfinished koi may still be the best one among those competing.

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    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow
    I,m gonna quess here,because of what you may mean by unfinished. In japan a condition that looks unfinished is called kage ( kaa-gay ) It will always look unfinished and is admired for the look it presents. Perhaps that's what your seeing?

    What I admire about the japanese and don't see in other countries as much is the tendencey to wait AND KNOW that a koi is finished and ready to show. But from a judging stand point an unfinished koi may still be the best one among those competing.
    Kinda cool how they can for see the futrue potential of the fish. The Showa below won Runner-Up at a local show. It was judged by Mr. Ogata and Mr. Konishi..As you explained the kage sumi earlier, it is very apparent on this fish. The strongest point of this fish is the conformation.
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    Honmei keokoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori
    Kinda cool how they can for see the futrue potential of the fish. The Showa below won Runner-Up at a local show. It was judged by Mr. Ogata and Mr. Konishi..As you explained the kage sumi earlier, it is very apparent on this fish. The strongest point of this fish is the conformation.

    I was at that show. Ogata San and Konishi San were very impressed with thsi Showa. One thing to point out of this showa that it does not have anything near a good Kohak pattern. To me a prime example of a quality unfinished fish.

    Question... If sumi was to come in on thsi Showa would it be to heavy ..... ????
    It's a living creature (chit happens)

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    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    I think it would have been too heavy. But lacquar sumi on that showa would be cool. It would be interesting to sit and pick the Japanese judges mind a bit and see what he sees. Because by AKCA standards a more finished fish should have won over that Showa.
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  6. #6
    Honmei keokoi's Avatar
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    Yeah I think too heavy as well but I like this showa with the Kage even though its not all kage. I guess unfinished kage look I could deal with as well. Looks also like it could be an awesome Oyagoi for future....


    Joe
    It's a living creature (chit happens)

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    Sansai Akinosan's Avatar
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    Sansai marco's Avatar
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    I understand what you mean Dick, but it would be interestind to see the other Koi that were finished just to understand.
    I would think like Aquitory, and would prefere to rank first a finish koi.
    I 'm wondering too, looking that picture where is the border between a showa with a kage sumi, a goshiki and a kage sanshoku.
    Thanks both for your light

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I do not think Showa should be viewed as if they were Sanke with more Sumi, or a Kohaku with bands of Sumi. Showa are about power and balance... a ying-yang type of balance.

    Red balances against black, but with a somewhat lesser weight to the eye, so a little more red than black can create an impression of balance, as in the famous Kato Showa. The white should also balance, but not necessarily in even proportions as some of the old texts say. It is "visual weight" that needs to balance. Even a Showa heavy in Sumi and Hi can have balanced Shiro if it is distributed well along the body frame and the head. ..... an impression of a fish with great strength stored up, but it does not "explode" because there is so much control imposed by the balance of colors/pattern. There is a lot of self-control in the impression given by Showa.

    The Showa posted has very nice balance on a powerful body, and notice the way the Kage Sumi balances against Shiro, and the more finished Sumi balances against the red; and how close the surface area covered in black and red comes to matching the surface covered in gray and white. Is either side visually heavier than the other? Is the front or rear half visually heavier than the other?

    I believe the Mssrs Ogata and Konishi mentioned must be the breeders? They perhaps would not be as focused on the finish as on the potential and the package.

  10. #10
    Nisai
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    Mike, I get your point that Japanese are far more patient but how long ?? For example, pls find the attached picture of sakai showa than won best variety twice in All Japan 2001 and 2003 (90bu). IMHO, i consider this fish unfinished especially when looking at the half end of the body.
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