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Thread: please comment on my showa

  1. #1
    Nisai mike's Avatar
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    please comment on my showa

    im back! remember I killed my previous ISA showa (the one you guys said had weak beni)

    please comment on this one

    14cm
    Marudoh


  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Aragorn: Such a small fellow. It is very difficult to comment at that size, particularly since color does not always come true in photos. The red seems too deep for so young a koi, if the photo is accurate. I think you need to give it an easy winter and not try to push the growth too much. Reminds me of one that grew too rapidly... not good for the pigment. Let's see how it looks at 10".

  3. #3
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Mike, as a serious student of showa what is your take on what i call "scratchy" black

  4. #4
    Sansai adreamer2's Avatar
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    Your little guy's sumi looks like it can go dark all over the body... Too early to tell at this point, but I'm almost certain that sumi will go really black all over.....


    Adreamer2
    Adreamer2,
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    Alas, I have found my feat.. and am about to run!

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Dick, I'm thinking this is mainly "baby Sumi" that will fade. It seems to be primarily in the top layer of skin, like a smokey cloud, rather than coming up from the deeper layers of skin. There are a couple of areas that seem to be deeper Sumi coloring individual areas of some scales an inky color. If the photo is accurate on that, I'd expect the small specks of Sumi to fill-in the scales in the future. Tosai Showa, especially a little fellow like this, are so hard to predict. The breeder will know whether the Sumi is coming or going w/o giving it a thought, and be right most of the time. But for a person to figure it out w/o knowing how offspring from the pairing develop is a tough call. So, if I was considering buying this tosai, I'd try to ignore the Sumi and "see" the Hi and Hi pattern alone. If that passed muster, then I'd try to decide if the bit of Sumi that looks inky on a couple of scales is good quality or just appearing to be good because the rest is so thin in comparison... it plays tricks on the eye.

  6. #6
    Nisai mike's Avatar
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    wow, there's such a thing as baby sumi? (at least that's good news)

    for what it's worth, both pectorals have motoguro

  7. #7
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Are these an example of what you are talking about?

    Should I expect the buried bluish Sumi above the pec's to rise and the surface Sumi on the sides of the top fin to disappear? This is all very interesting to me as I am trying to learn expectations for Showa and Sanke.
    BTW, this Koi is app. 12-13cm
    (sorry about the mediocre pic quality )

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM
    Dick, I'm thinking this is mainly "baby Sumi" that will fade. It seems to be primarily in the top layer of skin, like a smokey cloud, rather than coming up from the deeper layers of skin. There are a couple of areas that seem to be deeper Sumi coloring individual areas of some scales an inky color. If the photo is accurate on that, I'd expect the small specks of Sumi to fill-in the scales in the future. Tosai Showa, especially a little fellow like this, are so hard to predict. The breeder will know whether the Sumi is coming or going w/o giving it a thought, and be right most of the time. But for a person to figure it out w/o knowing how offspring from the pairing develop is a tough call. So, if I was considering buying this tosai, I'd try to ignore the Sumi and "see" the Hi and Hi pattern alone. If that passed muster, then I'd try to decide if the bit of Sumi that looks inky on a couple of scales is good quality or just appearing to be good because the rest is so thin in comparison... it plays tricks on the eye.
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    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  8. #8
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    A somewhat clearer pic

    Hopefully this one turned out better.
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    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    LOL! Dick, look what trouble you've gotten me into. ... Folks: Recall that Dick called me a "student". A very accurate term! I'm a learner...And, I've got a lot to learn!

    Aragorn: Yes, there is temporary Sumi that shows up in baby koi. It is probably an adaptation from the wild... a type of protective camouflage for youngsters, not unlike the way black and gray tones on very young comet goldfish will fade away revealing a standard orange-red goldfish. Check the thread I started called "A Rainbow of Showa", and look at the one I call "Pumpkin". There is absolutely no resemblance between her nearly black face in Fall '04 and her face in Fall '05.

    PapaBear, I'd really like to see a photo from one month earlier to compare and see what direction things are going, but even then I'd likely not be able to give you reliable advice. First, the dark blotches next to the dorsal "feel" like permanent Sumi to me. I expect it will consolidate and the edges become more defined. But, the pic is not very good for really saying. On the other hand, the darker "wash" of sumi that looks like it was lightly brushed on along each side of the dorsal fin has the look of temporary Sumi fading away. The Hi will become more pure as that "over wash" of Sumi disappears. The deep Sumi patch will then stand out even more...I think.

    The blue-gray area is the more interesting part, because I've seen areas like that develop in several ways. It is not what I call "baby Sumi", which is superficial. It is Sumi deep in the skin layers. I've seen fish where the area becomes white by the time the fish is nisai, only to have the Sumi rise up at age 4 or 5 and cover everything. Sometimes the area just stays white ... but maybe it returns at age 7? (LOL) [I've not kept any long enough to say from personal experience.] In other fish it is Sumi forming now and beginning to "rise" to the surface; and in still others true Kage shadows are formed, which may be permanent or very slowly become consolidated Sumi. I'd like to think you have some Kage there, just because it would be very attractive if it turned out that way. I kinda feel there is a chance of staying Kage because of the way the Sumi fills the areas under the scales... gives an impression similar to young Asagi. But, this is a very young Showa. I really think you have to be familiar with offspring from the pairing that produced it to do much more than guess at that size and age.

    I enjoy guessing about little Showa because whatever happens, I learn from it. I hope you keep that little thing and post a pic in Spring when ready to go back in the summer pond. Then we can see how the winter treated it. Then more pics at the end of summer as nisai, which is when we can really get an idea of what is happening.
    Last edited by MikeM; 12-28-2005 at 12:37 PM. Reason: left out sentence

  10. #10
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    This Pic is about 2 months old

    http://koi-bito.com/forum/attachment...achmentid=3624

    That is the best picture of this one I have from earlier this year, but it doesn't really show the surface Sumi along the top all that well. (my photography skills aren't what they used to be ) Not much to get a comparison from. From my own observation every aspect seems to be coming along nicely. I'm especially pleased with the nice even "hi saddle" at the midsection and the hi slashes behind the gills on both sides. But then again I'm more than a little bit prejudiced .

    This is the first spawn I've had from this pairing. Father is my avatar pic and mother is Sanke with mediocre hi (persimmon color) but nicely laquered Sumi. Since both parents have very inky Sumi I'm hoping their offspring will follow suit.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

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