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Asagi Breeding 2004

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  • #16

    Mike, Don't misread me, I'm rooting for Dick and this breeding all the way here!
    But crossing two fish of the same variety but of different types does not produce hybrid vigor- more likely a greater regression to the mean. Koi varieties are an illusion held together by constant linebreeding and periodic, timely and appropriate out crossing, and most of all- rigorous culling.
    It has been theorized by breeders and ZNA types that if 13 varieties were released into the wild, in four or five generations they would revert to gold,white, silver, black ,red and brown carp.
    Just my two cents! And Dick- " go get 'em"

    JR

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    • #17

      Thank-you Mike for your encouragement! If there's one thing I've learned over the years is that there is theory and then there is application. some time theory gets it right, sometimes it doesn't.

      Having the knowledge as Jim Does ( remember Jim was fascinated with asagi long before I was) and having the access to breeders and other japanese thru his ZNA connections, gives him alot of back ground info.

      But the bottom line is if i get some good young from this pairing then i have something to work with. The female's red is too much for my taste.
      the male is alittle less than what I think is correct. I'm hopeful I will produce some females with less red that I can work with.

      what I learned from my shiros that I won with in a local show over japanese fish is mom has too much black, and dad not enough. a small percentage of thier spawn come out with a 60/40 mix of white to black.
      I'm hopefull, this will prove thru with the amount of red with the asagis.
      the trouble with this variety is that it will take me THREE YEARS to find out what my best ones scalation will be. narumi or reverse or maybe something else from the background heredity. ( gee I should have started on this as a young man! (lol)
      So as everything with koi keeeping it's a journey
      and I'm going to enjoy the ups and downs as I work with the kind of koi I love.
      I have sanke and kohaku to breed this year again. to me I think sanke are the most difficult to get the black right. I have a new female this year.
      she has one piece of red on her and two pieces of black ands the white is
      stunning. I get tickled when people look at the kohakus. both the male and female are 3 steps and the comments always something to the effect that i'm trying to spawn for just 3 steps! one year I used a tancho kohaku male and got the same comments for tanchos. But from what theory and practicle appilication has taught me is you get a mix of koi from tancho to all the steps with this effort. I have heard ( unsubstantiated) that there is a breeder in hamamatsue who gets a predominance of tanchos from his spawns in sanke and kohaku and he has learned something to make it happen.
      watching asagi's grow would be like to watching the grass do it's thing.
      I may have to slip in a few others to keep you all from getting bored!
      Dick Benbow

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      • #18

        Was just talking to SMG and she mentioned something I wanted to share that I hadn't thought of. All my baby asagi's are born on a blueberry farm. the first asagi i ever got many moons ago was named blueberry by my son. kinda weird heh?
        Dick Benbow

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        • #19

          JR: Don't really disagree. That's why I said a "sort of" hybrid vigor. The color/skin aspects would seem to be risking reversion. The size/growth/hardiness aspects are what I was thinking about.

          A few years ago, I helped my daughter do a crossing of guppies for a science project. Crossed a purple veiltail with a gold-bodied red delta from an award winning line. The brilliant red was lost in the first generation. Also, no purple. There were a few throwbacks to "common guppy" roots, but otherwise the fry grew quickly to become uniformly olive-bodied with dull, muddy red tails with nothing to be said for them, except: the tails were among the best shaped veils I've ever seen (combining the best attributes of the parent lines), grew larger than either parent strain, had excellent bone structure, hardy & adaptable to water conditions. They were the best looking valueless junk I've ever grown. Asagi genetics are a mystery to me. Hopefully among the junk that any koi cross is going to produce there will be a few that take the best of both parents without losing the blue that makes Asagi so interesting. Glad I'm not the one with the responsibility to cull!!

          Dick: If the male went into soft water with neutral pH, would the head lighten? How long? Has he done this color change before? Someday I'd like to try Asagi, but our hard, alkaline water deters me.

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          • #20

            I imagine Dick will be out there at the farm next week picking those blueberries.

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            • #21

              SMG
              I will have to talk to Sue and See when they're gonna be ripe to pick. the strawberries are coming on early this year.

              Mike,
              He'll make a big change to lighten up in about 3 months in the right water. From my experience if you have hard water stay away from asagi's shusui's hariwake's and midori. it's too heart breaking to work to get a good one then watch them go downhill in your pond. that was interesting about your guppy experiment!
              Dick Benbow

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              • #22

                There are baby asagi's swimming as of today. They're about the size of a nose hair. The temps have been dropping so we keep adding the temps up with adding more aquarium heaters to the show tanks. Will spend more time at the blueberry farm monday!
                Dick Benbow

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                • #23

                  dick, i am really happy for you. and as an aspiring asagi breeder myself, enthraled with your endeavour.

                  i hope you can arrange or post pictures before durring and after the culls, to show us what you are keeping and what you're not. i am keen to learn all i can from your experience.

                  I am also keen to see photos of your reverse when it lightens up, as the fish i thought was a reverse asagi i saw at otsuka's last fall looked a lot different than yours, but perhaps it was not.

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                  • #24

                    Always good to hear from a fellow Asagi enthusiast. I got my son to post an avitar for me of my kindai showa from Igarashi Kazuto. So I quess that means I haven't given up on my love for other varieties yet!

                    The beauty of simbetsu with asagi is you have nothing to go by the first
                    year except the red. Red is the key. the less of it the better. a few red
                    scales on the belly is what you keep. if it's a tosai with red up the lateral line and blue asagi han coming on the back already, it'll never cut it in the years ahead.

                    Brian from KB says he will be doing some articles from Hosokai and otsuka so we have something to look forward to.
                    Dick Benbow

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                    • #25

                      Dick: I would have guessed that you would also cull very dark specimens at some point in the first year. (Shows what I know!)

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                      • #26

                        Both Hosokai and Otsuka ? Fantastic!

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                        • #27

                          Well I must apologise to those who expected to see some more photos. I diddn't have anything left after culling thru the shiros and showas. It took most of the day and it was all I could do to stand erect afterwards.
                          the shiro yield was low this year. too bad too as the two year olds from the
                          last spawning are turning out just super.
                          the production on the showa was better than the shiros. They are only a few days younger in age yet the shiro's are twice the size already.
                          The blueberries will be coming on early this year,by the way. The baby asagi's are so plentiful. they do raise up to get fed already but are not much bigger than a nose hair. I will split the spawn in two and place in different growth areas. It will be two months before I begin the selection process. It takes that long before you have anything to compare. Asagi breeders are about the unluckiest breeders of all kinds as the babies are so non discript that you have nothing to compare by. maybe because it's so difficult and no body else loves this kind that makes me want to be sucessful at it.
                          the long fin babies are coming along fine. it will be a couple of months before finnage and sheen will be apparent so i can divide them. I have yamabuki and platinum ones of those growing. this week will see the kohaku and sanke spawned. I will be trying a new male with the kohaku
                          and the female and male will be new for the sanke. I just have a good feeling about the sanke this time. I learned something from last year's pairing. we'll see. at least this year I'll know what to select. last year having never spawned them I diddn't know what to look for after they just hatched!
                          I got a look at some of the matsukawabake babies in the growth pond from last year. My oh my, they are really growing. some are practically all white and others all black. one with a pattern like a classic kumonryu
                          had beautiful black. I don't think I need to breed more , so mom might get the year off. I.m looking for a different male for her next time. I want an old style really black goshiki gin rin. can't find one.
                          well about all from tales (tails) from the blue berry farm!
                          Dick Benbow

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                          • #28

                            Well, Saturday I'm off to the blueberry farm to separate the asagi's and maybe the longfins to bigger quarters. I quess feeding those growing mouths has been a real chore for my friend Sue. (she has her own family and now a grand daughter as well)
                            At this stage we are using daphney, some liquid fry food and as soon as some more brine shrimp eggs arrive via the post, some of those little rascals. the shiros are the first born and biggest of the bunches and some of them now are up to 1/2 " in length. the weather here in the great? Northwest has been rainy and cool so we could do with a strong heat wave to kick start the growth and keep it going. more later
                            Dick Benbow

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                            • #29

                              Dick how about some pics

                              How many have you culled them down to? How many were there to start? I have a few spawnings that will happen soon in the mud ponds and it will be interesting to try culling down to 25 per bunch I don't know how I can do that. I know it can be done.
                              The perfect koi is always one purchase or spawning away!

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                              • #30

                                I would like to see some pics of the fry at the different stages would that be possible?
                                The perfect koi is always one purchase or spawning away!

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