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  • #31

    So now I am going out on a limb and guessing here...Is it that these failing koi that are going so called "south", koi that have a lot of potential to even the most discerning hobbiest; are sold by breeders because THEY ALREADY KNOW that the koi, will not live up to the expectations of the breeder(s). So as nisai and sansai, they will be auctioned off for sale for thousands of dollars to the next unsuspecting dealer/owner? This would mean that the breeders, with all their experience, knowledge and know-how know "THE SECRET" to selecting the best for parent stock or for selling at $10,000-$20,000 or more! I guess it is their business to know better than anybody else...

    WOW! Kind of makes me not want to even take a chance on $250-$500 koi. Just play with pet $20-$50 koi that look nice for short time and then rotate new ones in and getting rid of the older koi before they get too big. At least you have the hype of getting "new fish" all the time.

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    • #32

      There are all kinds, Akai-San, so I'm sure the underhanded are among the koi dealer/breeder ranks as well. However, keep in mind that each buyer may be looking for something different. A person who wants a koi to enter in a show and really take a shot at a major award is looking for a finished fish. A year later, she may well have passed her peak and be going down hill. Don't we all "fail" a bit more with each passing birthday? On the other hand, a person who is looking for a true tategoi ... a future fish ... is hoping that it will develop in certain ways. No guarantees in this world. Even the breeder cannot be sure what will happen, but the more knowledgeable of the bloodline the breeder is, the more likely the breeder's judgment will be correct. As to the dealer, they are at least a step removed from the breeder, so their judgment is inherently less reliable, although a dealer who works closely with a breeder over many years may be about as good as the breeder himself in predicting the future.

      Then, too, you have to remember that usually the breeder is parting with fish at the point when he thinks he can get the most for them ... before they start to go down hill. All tosai are culls, but I still enjoy getting some each year to watch them develop. And for someone looking to win GC at a major show, all Nisai are culls. Win an award at a major show in Japan? ... Well, somebody else would know more, but probably likely the breeder kept the fish until at least 4 or 5 years of age, if not more?

      In the end, get what you enjoy. If that's a $20 Ogon, go do it. If it's a 34" Kohaku in her prime, I'm glad you can afford her!

      Comment

      • #33

        Bekko: I notice by the photo you look a little "bored"
        Dick Benbow

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        • #34

          Dale,
          Dang it! what ya got to bring race into this.....and how come you are making it sound like bein' shiromuji is a bad thing?

          And B'ham huh? Well you were almost in the South then. if we'd have had the steel produced in B'ham after the "wah" during the "wah," The "wah" would have been over PDQ.

          bekko,
          Why would my birth certificate keep all them Mexicans from whuppin' my ass?

          Comment

          • #35

            Thanks for all the interesting comments. The dealer from whom I purchased the Kohaku is quite secretive about the Japanese dealers he visits. There is some uncertainty as to the breeder so I will not name the possibilities.
            When the Koi was younger the red was a deeper colour, almost too crimson for the age of the Koi, however, the white was excellent. As far as I can remember the maruzome kiwa was present from the begining. As it began to grow it reverted to a more orange red. Colour enhancers had been used perhaps? I preferred the orange colour in a nissai. The centres of the scales seemed darker than the periphery. Optimistically I took this to be hoshi. Unfortunately, the before photos have disapeared from my PC. I will search through my old disks but I am not the most methodical of filers! I'll post the photo of the sibling.
            The sibling (sister) of this Koi is doing well, has grown nicely. The hi has also turned more orange but no sign of a window. The white spots are reflection off of the water.
            Attached Files

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            • #36

              yes dick, i am

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              • #37

                Dr.,

                You pic shows a nice body on your koi. I'm always a sucker for nice body structure...Does sister have a great bod as well?

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                • #38

                  Yes, the Koi were similar in many respects, including shape.

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                  • #39

                    My four step kohaku went south, went wrong, went shitty and went shiromuji. Pick the one you like. They are all bad!

                    Dale[/QUOTE]

                    I like "Went Shitty"....It explains it all in any country.. Oh yeah Brian, didn't mean to use foul language....
                    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                    Comment

                    • #40

                      Originally posted by Maurice
                      Both kohaku posted give me a scary feeling...
                      ... the maruzome kiwa looks a little frightening.
                      Signs to look out for.

                      Here is a snap of a famous kohaku I own which shows you the signs to look out for with regard to kiwa breaking up.

                      Maurice.
                      Hello Maurice,
                      could you please explain further the signs that make Koi to be considered "iffy"?
                      I understand that maruzome is Kiwa following the edge of the scales. Is that correct?

                      Diego
                      Diego Jordano
                      Cordoba, Spain
                      A.E.K. web site http://www.elkoi.com
                      pers. web site http://es.geocities.com/estanqueskois/

                      Comment

                      • #41

                        Diego,

                        You are correct in thinking maruzome kiwa is the rear end of a hi plate which follows the edge of the scales in a scalloped fashion. Toshio Sakai is also working with maruzome sumi, where the trailing edge of a block of sumi also shows this scalloped edge in his sanke.


                        ---------------------
                        ------------Maruzome kiwa--------------------------------Kamisori kiwa
                        Sorry these photos are a little poor and different sizes, but they are snippets taken from photos of my own koi and not just shot to show the kiwa types.


                        Stability of beni is a difficult thing to predict, it has been said above that perhaps the breeders may know in advance of us, when a koi has reached the point where the beni is about to break up, spoil the koi and they sell it off quick. I can’t see this as true, if that were the case, these breeders would get a one time sale and no more, who would be going back to these breeders if every koi you brought from them failed? To me the breeders are very honourable people and would rather take the loses themselves than pass them onto the customer.



                        Early signs of beni breaking up can show in one of 3 ways, from the head, from the kiwa, or as a total weakening of the beni.



                        The most common I have seen shows towards the back end of a hiban, at or around the kiwa edge, the beni starts to weaken around the last scale, showing a little white or just lightening of the colour, this happens on koi with maruzome and kamisori kiwa, kamisori kiwa, is the type of kiwa in which the hiban edge cuts through the scale and not following the scale edge. A koi with kamisori kiwa which starts to fail can start to change into a maruzome style kiwa as the hi tends to receded.

                        With this type of recession look low down on the beni pattern, when a koi finishes the pattern finishes from the bottom upwards, this is often also where the pattern starts to break up from.



                        The next is beni breaking up from the head. The red pattern on the head should not change but sometimes it does, this is the time to be concerned. If it is a koi in your collection you can see this happening, but if it is a koi you are thinking of buying you have no idea. But if the pattern on the head has receded you can often see a pink ‘hue’ where the beni use to be, also pink/red spots where the pigment is still a little stronger. (these pink/red spots and a general pink hue can often be seen in time on a koi which has had it’s head pattern ‘surgically enhanced)



                        I have another photo showing the pink staining and spots on a koi I have which I feel has had it's head pattern altered. I'm not commenting on the one above! I own both these koi, I other photo I shall have to dig out or retake.

                        Then there is the general failing of the beni in totality, this in my experience is less common. Although most beni loss is due to a trigger (poor conditions etc), I believe this happens more often when there is a hiccup in the system. This type of beni loss can happen very quickly and within week or two you can have a white koi, whereas with the others mentioned it can take much longer, some times years for the koi to lose all of it’s colour.



                        On the whole the purple type beni is the least stable, with the more orange types being better at holding their colour, but all types and shades can break up. Some koi which are vulnerable to loosing their beni can have a trigger to start the failing, then conditions return to normal halting the recession, only for it to start up again with the first hiccup.



                        All these points I raise should be remembered when buying a new koi, look closely at the edges of the patterns and pick a koi with an even shade from head to tail and keep your fingers crossed. Cheap koi and expensive koi can fail. Thickness of the beni is an important point, some koi have the colour which is just like it were painted on the surface, when this type of koi moves white can often be seen at the scale edges. If you pick up a koi like this and bend it’s body, white can clearly be seen under the scales, leave that one behind. A good quality koi will have many layers of colour deep down into the skin.

                        Maurice.
                        http://www.koi-uk.co.uk

                        Comment

                        • #42

                          good post maurice. lots of helpful information. I think as a breeder in Europe you should consider putting this kind of knowledge into them olde blue fish!
                          Dick Benbow

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                          • #43

                            Hi Maurice,
                            thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and explaining so clearly all these key concepts. Your post is really superb, good and useful information. Better than many articles in Koi magazines!
                            I think it is a pity that this post will be probably difficult to find in some few months by new people joining the forum, and is so informative that you should cosinder to either try to get it published in a magazine or in your web page.

                            This piece of information might also be very useful to friends and members of the Spanish Koi Keeper's Society (A.E.K.) that are starting to import rather expensive Koi.
                            Would it be allright if I translate it to spanish and publish the translation in the A.E.K. web page (www.elkoi.com)? You might suggest a title and of course you will be credited as the author, besides a link to your web site. What do you think? Please, let me know your thoughts.
                            All the best,
                            Diego
                            Diego Jordano
                            Cordoba, Spain
                            A.E.K. web site http://www.elkoi.com
                            pers. web site http://es.geocities.com/estanqueskois/

                            Comment

                            • #44

                              Mo, great post!!!! Very informative!!!
                              The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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                              • #45

                                Diego, I’m more than happy for you to translate this to your Spanish web site with an acknowledgement. I can supply photos to illustrate each of the types of beni loss types I talk about, I was going to try and post them but Brian seems to have a block on the number of photos which can be posted with each entry, so I left them out. I’ll try editing the post and put them in.
                                Often, if I put a lot of effort into a post, I do a bit of extra and the add it to my web site. I may do the samme with this.
                                Best wishes and good luck this coming breeding season,

                                Maurice.
                                http://www.koi-uk.co.uk

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