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Bead Filters, an American curse?

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  • #16

    Originally posted by dick benbow
    there are many roads that get to rome.
    To me BB's are like fire. To know how to properly use one is to be kept warm, to expect them to be the end all be all is to get burned. As always knowledge makes the difference.....
    I with you Dick, there is more that one way to filter a koi pond and everyone has their own opionion on which one works best. In my opionion, they all work it's the maintenance that promotes their efficiency. With the right up keep they all work, and without it they all crash.

    If there is truly one "PERFECT" system, I myself and the rest of the koi community would be interested.

    Low Blow's are unappreciated on this board.

    Comment

    • #17

      erwinsan and others ~ There is a perfect System

      It's natures, but it ain't cheap...

      There are a number of watercress farms on the shores of Pearl Harbor fed by artesian wells. In the 60’s, when I started this hobby, I visited one of the farms where the owner built his house so that a deck was over his well…

      The first paddock next to his house was dedicated to koi…it was only 18"-2’ deep but contained the biggest, most beautiful koi I had ever seen…. Best part was the water was crystal clear and the maintenance was Zero, because this was a flow through system…I live in the area and our water, the same that feeds the wells is: 7.5 pH, with a hardness of 3 dH and zero contaminants… Sing along with me, Heaven, I'm in Heaven...

      The farmer fed his koi, dog food, because it made um grow big fast (remember this was the ‘60s)… Each morning and evening, he’d throw handfuls of the doggie chow into the pond, the koi would eat their fill and the left overs would flow into the adjacent paddies along with all the koi waste as free fertilizer for the cress…

      I’ve always dreamt of buying property in the area, but never followed through, stupid me!…

      To make matters worse, the @#$*%^ power company condemned his land using a crazy law of eminent domain (they needed the land for the good of the people) forced him to sell, capped the well, filled in the ponds and built a storage yard and parking lot…. As the song says "they sold paradise and put up a parking lot" Grrrrrrrr!

      Aloha! PO’d

      Comment

      • #18

        Originally posted by Mike T
        It's natures, but it ain't cheap...

        There are a number of watercress farms on the shores of Pearl Harbor fed by artesian wells. In the 60’s, when I started this hobby, I visited one of the farms where the owner built his house so that a deck was over his well…

        The first paddock next to his house was dedicated to koi…it was only 18"-2’ deep but contained the biggest, most beautiful koi I had ever seen…. Best part was the water was crystal clear and the maintenance was Zero, because this was a flow through system…I live in the area and our water, the same that feeds the wells is: 7.5 pH, with a hardness of 3 dH and zero contaminants… Sing along with me, Heaven, I'm in Heaven...

        The farmer fed his koi, dog food, because it made um grow big fast (remember this was the ‘60s)… Each morning and evening, he’d throw handfuls of the doggie chow into the pond, the koi would eat their fill and the left overs would flow into the adjacent paddies along with all the koi waste as free fertilizer for the cress…

        I’ve always dreamt of buying property in the area, but never followed through, stupid me!…

        To make matters worse, the @#$*%^ power company condemned his land using a crazy law of eminent domain (they needed the land for the good of the people) forced him to sell, capped the well, filled in the ponds and built a storage yard and parking lot…. As the song says "they sold paradise and put up a parking lot" Grrrrrrrr!

        Aloha! PO’d
        What a shame. Your right... but again how many of us can find this opportunity. To have a natural water source good for koi with zero maintenance and enviromentally friendly. Even in Japan with their mud ponds, they still have to do annual maintenance and pull the koi out to winter them in doors. Hey, it's all part of the fun.

        Regards

        Comment

        • #19

          Yup no perfect system yet, haven't seen it....If anyone's seen it let us all know, cause sure as hell I have been using the same system for the last 4 years....Anyways, all I know is that you can have the cleanest water and if your fish dont look good you still have a problem....People can go on and on about systems and what works best from them, to he suggest this and she suggested that....Whatever works best for the hobbyist and their budget I guess.
          Also tategoi was brought up in this thread...What the hell is a "Real tategoi", Those of us who have been to Japan and had a chance to see such a creature knows it's just tategoi. Is there a fake tategoi out there? Everything is tategoi to some point at what point no one knows. So is it cool to say a nice aged Merlot is tategoi? or real tategoi? Whatever real tategoi means it must be at a level even higher than that of breeders standards and anyways you have to have some serious cash to buy a "Real Tategoi". Sounds like something a dealer would tell a hobbyist who didnt know jack about Nishikigoi just to buy it on a good sales pitch.
          Back to filteration, unless you have the budget to build a small city sewage threatment plant for your pond by all means do it, it's your money!! But to me if your fish look like garbage I will let you know. It's all about the fish period!!!
          The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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          • #20

            aquitori, there is a perfect system. Its the koi keeper himself.

            SF

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            • #21

              Originally posted by swordfish
              aquitori, there is a perfect system. Its the koi keeper himself.

              SF
              AMEN!!!! Everyone goes through a journey of what is best for their pond...
              The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

              Comment

              • #22

                Originally posted by donald
                Last weekend it was wonderful day for me to visit a koi dealer near by. There were a bunch of new arrival nisai to view and critic, a chance of tete-a-tete conversation with an seasoned judge/hobbyist and meeting a bunch of koi friends.

                After all those years of debating, one of my koi friend still insisted that using bead filter filtration as the main bio source is an acceptable option! an philosophy of (bio) selection! Talking about the pursuit of wisdom!! Here is his filtration setup:

                B. drain > shalow settling tank with Matala.
                Then to pump > bead filter > to pond.

                This design was the brainchild of 3 local koi dealers that I am aware of. The principle of this warp setup was to catch most of the waste at the settling tank with help from Jmats, Matala or PCV shaves .... then the beadfilter has an easy time in processing the ammonia/nitrite! Instead of daily summer backwashing, the routine is reduce to a weekly/monthly chores!! Settling tank is then isolated and clean weekly!! My good Lord! there are more: the dealers claimed fish is healthy and growing like weed!! And, I almost forget, the water is GIN clear! Meanwhile the dummy guy, like JR, was talking about 2-hour interval settling tank summer flushing if he has his way!!!

                My friend, I would like to debate with you on this cyber once for all. You know who I am and I know you cruise this cyber .... let's debate this week as my current work load would allow me to sit and cruise with you all day! Looser pay for all SoCal ZNA trip? Donald

                ps. in the future meetings between us, we only talk about how to collect real high class Nishikigoi at an affordable cost. OK my friend?
                D, you bag on people and their ponds pretty good. Well, here's my piece to YOU - YES YOU - - Why don't you show us your cards and post up your "perfect system" and while you're at it how about some pics. Everyone's seen mine. Once again put your money where your mouth is .

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                • #23

                  ........................

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                  • #24

                    Guys I can see the emotions starting to flare and i think when they do we loose what this board is all about.

                    While i believe you both need to be able to carry on a lively debate and that others can learn from your comments, I urge you both to please keep things
                    respectful here. thanking you both in advance.
                    Dick Benbow

                    Comment

                    • #25

                      Yes, I think beads are a curse. They are an excellent method of solids removal, but they catch the particles in a compressive fashion, holding them in a flow of water that gets more powerful as it collects more crap, thus boosting the opportunity for organics to disolve and increase the pollution.


                      EA's new device is a version of the static kaldness that some of us have been looking at for a while now. Interestingly, this means that K can be run to catch no particles at all when fluidised, but static it becomes a very efficient particle trap. Better still, it does not trap the particles in a compressive fashion.

                      My personal favourite would be to run a screen over a bed of static sinking media shaped like kaldness. This ssm would be fluidised to clean, and water removed from it using an undergravel like extraction. The water from that would then be pumped to a TT.

                      This system gives serious solids removal, -far better than the answer, does not need a dedicated pump to run it, wnat little escapes the screens is held in the SSM, and any organics that do escape get fried in the TT, which can give most of the benefits of a Bakki.

                      The footprint would be tiny, and in theory could filter a pond of 10,000, maybe even more using a 1 metre sq footprint. (this would depend on baffling the flow to prevent disturbance of the SSM by the water falling onto it.

                      I'd rate that as pretty good.

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                      • #26

                        Aloha bil...

                        Have you ever owned a Bead Filter, what type? What kind of fish load,? If the clogging was a problem, why didn't you clean it more often?

                        Am asking these questions because after a year and a half, I haven't experienced any problems and am wondering if I have to aware of something that may happen in the future...

                        As I've said many times, our water quality is great, koi are healthy, great color and growth... ORP always 350-400 no nasties in the water...

                        Your comments will be greatly appreciated..

                        Aloha! Mike

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                        • #27

                          Nope, never used one, never would, except as a fines removal system, and even then I would rather use a loose capture system like static K than a compressive system.

                          What you need to be aware with a bead is that it is compressive and can react badly to treatments like pp.

                          I'm glad it works well for you. My grandfather smoked all his life and lived till he was almost 90. Despite that I still don't recommend it.

                          They have their uses, and if you have no space for a real filter they can be the only way you will get one to work. I still don't like them and wouldn't ever advocate one. Oddly, a lot of serious koi people like JR are always very critical of them.

                          Sorry, but I still rate a screen 'n static as far better.

                          Aloha!

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                          • #28

                            bil:

                            Thanks for your honest candid reply...

                            Aloha! Mike

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                            • #29

                              No problem. Always good to have discussions that can remain pleasant and informative. Beads are a brilliant concept, like the Answer, but I feel that both lack something in practice.

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                              • #30

                                altho many are in use and under the proper maintenance can add to the benefit of the pond's Former condition. Knowledge and education is a progressive movement for those involved. Change and growth is inevitable. We all benefit
                                from the work and study created by Ea and other groups. We may all be heading for the same location but our timeing and routes we take to get there may have us arrive at varied times. i thinkthe driving force should be the japanese concept of kaisan or daily improvement. BB's are not the end all be all. But they can make a contribution on the path to knowledge. To understand their strength and weaknesses is to be a better koi keeper. many have different learning techniques. some can grasp concepts some have to have hands on and learn thru cause and affect.

                                in example: someone who has been burned by fire could tell someone else don't mess with it. Another who has been warmed by it might have another view. Ultimately the person who hears boths sides of fire will probably in all inevitability
                                have to find out what it means to them.
                                Dick Benbow

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