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  • #31

    Steve you are a power house of info. I thank you.

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    • #32

      No relation ranskye. You and the Brits call sparidae 'bream'. In the US, most spadidae are called 'porgy', except for the sheephead. Where KFG lives, 'bream' is a catch-all name for a group of freshwater centrarchid sunfish. She probably has bluegill sunfish, Lepomis macrochirus, but it could be one of the others.

      -steve hopkins

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      • #33

        yeah bream is a name given to about 15 fish here too, most but not of all the same family either.

        was thinking you might have red bream.. hangon that was red drum. a croaker.
        a big fish like our mulloway. then again i think some countries call lutjanus bream too.

        about the only species here that are farmed for foodfish in ponds in big numbers are barras and silver perch. trout down south, and salmon, tuna and kingfish down south in cages, think you guys have the tilapias too, they wont let us have them here.

        you see why they use a latin instead of a common name.

        we have pesky fish that nip at tails, mainly they get contaminated form pond to pnd from moving cages of fish around the farm to free up a pond to breed in.. thats something kfg should be aware of. once its done its hard to control without a whole farm dry out as they can just move cross from pond with birds or maybe even in the rain.

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        • #34

          I wont have to worry about other fish unless the birds bring them in because my ponds will not be filled with spring water, since I will be using well water I can control what is in my ponds.

          My thing here is in the winter time we have a lot of rain. I dont know if I can dry out my ponds enough to kill the things that eat fry. Their is a chemical that I can use that will kill everything but I really dont want to use that.

          In this area we have sunfish, bluegill and shellcrackes. I am not sure if any two of the names are the same brime, this is just what I have heard them called.

          My contractor told me he could show me a way to drain the ponds without have to use a pump he says he does this all the time and does this by shiponing the water. I am trying to go the cheapest way with my pond for air as I dont want high electric bills. If I can make the shiponing work I am going to try this before I add any fish it see what happens. If it can be done to drain ponds you should be able to do this to put air in the water. Im not sure if enviroment would stop the flow of water once it is started or not I am just going to give it a try and see. I am hopeing I can go from my highest pond to my lowest and make this work and when the lowest pond fills it should overflow back into the other pond. I may just be wasteing my time I dont know but what the heck. I will try anything to reduce my electric bill.

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          • #35

            yes you can siphon, sure..ive done it using a compressor that sucks with a six inch pipe and by playing with buckets of water and pvc cappings.

            howevre the cheapest way was to put a pipe in throught the wall as they were dug. so try get em to put 4 pipes in four ponds now if you can manage it.

            leave it there permanent and it takes about 10 seconds to start and you dont have to lug pipes around. ill tell you now, that when your doing over 20 crops a year you dont need to waste time on things that coulda been remidied in the building process for about 50 bucks.
            ive run a farm that was like that.. a total nightmare compared.

            consider things like that to take away from your time enjoying life with friends, family or something other than kois.

            you can gravity siphon only to a lower point which means you must have a low ditch or channel somewhere there.
            throw a pipe in at that height of the channell through the wall with a cap or elbow and lenght (standpipe) internal or external woulda done the trick..which would let you drain to that depth and pump the rest. pack the dirt around it good.

            thats why i was saying its not fun farming in holes in the ground.. they should be purpose built to make your farming days much easier.

            anyway siphoning takes more time thats all. youll still be seeing fish. maybe you can make some money up and dig em in later if you do a good crop and make some sales.
            maybe if you have a backhoe available someday when doing something else, you can do it right.

            for me, well water is pumped from the ground and spring water is leaking form the ground.
            thats good your using ground water with no trash but dont let the guard down on moving trash fish around on nets, in nets, in buckets of water, hyacynth if you use it etc.

            i know everyone says dont use that net on that pond and then the next one but its hard to be strict on yourself.
            ive often wished i had a new farm so i could avoid all the unwanteds.
            sound slike youve got a chance kfg.

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            • #36

              yep and if your worried about not being able to dry out fully cause of the weather or something. you can pump it dry and throw in hydrated lime in the damp spots. the slight slope helps you here too. you should only need about 3 days of sun to dry up most of the surface and just have to throwe it in the sump end.

              some people prefer hydrated lime as the lime to use before filling but for this situation i think its better as its harsher on organisms in the high concentration.

              ag lime or dolomite lime, it seems to me that most farmers i know just use superfine ag lime but theres much conjecture when it comes to it as a science.
              clacium/magnesium ratio and benifit etc.

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              • #37

                Good you mentioned ag lime ranskye. With brand-new ponds, KFG should get a soil test and liming recommendation. This is liming to control pH, not quick lime for killing potential predators. I know you do not want to interact with the gov'ment KFG, but the County Extension Service is where most people take their soil sample. There is a good commercial lab in Texas:
                http://txplant-soillab.com/
                There is another in South Florida, but I cannot remember the name... A&L Laboratories or something like that?

                You can do a quick-and-dirty (no pun intended) soil pH test by:
                * put an equal volume of pond soil and water in a jar (at least 100 ml each);
                * cap the jar and shake vigorously for several minutes;
                * lay a half-dozen layers of paper towels in a funnel and set the funnel upright in another jar;
                * pour some clean water through the towels to wash out anything that might affect the pH and discard this water;
                * now pour the soil and water mixture into the funnel;
                * after enough water has seeped through the towels, run a pH test on it;
                * you can use pH test strips, a pH meter, test kit, whatever;
                * if the water dripping through the funnel is too orange (has too much clay in it), you will need to use a better filter paper instead of paper towels.

                If the sample pH is less than about 6.5, you should worry and look into it further. You might need to work up to 1,000 pounds per acre of agricultural lime into the pond bottom


                -steve

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                • #38

                  steve, aquaculture infiltrates the brain once again.. just when i thought it safe to think of bikinis and sunshine..
                  i remember doing various clay tests and checking soil ph but dont remember that test.

                  what does that test do?.. doesnt it tell you what 100 grams of soil and 100mls of your water, shaken up and discarding the water equal out to in a pH measure? wouldnt that be all it does.. i mean wouldnt that just prove that theres alkaliine soils or acidic soils and then what happens when combined with equal water... less it drained off.
                  has someone over there actually worked that test out to prove what pH the water will be once it is filled with that water..even if as a basic guide?
                  hangon..even more specifically, what i really mean to ask is how does that test come to give a standard on actual water buffering ability?
                  i dont mean to sound sceptical because i hope i may learn something from you, i hope we are here to learn from one another and share knowledge and ideas. really.

                  i can understand the 1000lb per acre or whatever rate but does test give you somnething to go by when determining application rates?

                  say i filled a pond and the water and it was showing a lack of lime.. let us not go into the whole calcium carbonate hardness total hardness trip unless someone asks us to please explain...ive memorised it but its a brain tease when ive had beer.
                  say it gave me only 10mg per litre carbonate hardness, wouldnt i add so much lime per litre to make it up to a desired concentration of say 40-80mg/L.

                  thats what i was always taught, 20mg is pretty low to buffer from pH swings and over 80mg was more cost than needed and if soils and water combined to make it was under 200mg everyhting was cool.
                  im thinking that maybe the 1000lbs per acre is a standard that is used when dosing ponds when calcium carbonate is determined low.

                  what i do is throw in 4 bags of aglime, first i was shown to use 4 bags of hydrated, then i read that hydrated was a bit toxic and can cause problems to pond life so i changed thought. then i heard off a guy that dolomite should be used instead.
                  now i figure that its all up to the individual farm..ill throw in one hydrated to kill wet sumps and 3 bags aglime to make up the rest. thats what i do on my ponds to suit.

                  HOWEVER, i cannot say which type has resulted ina better crop, or which combination would result in a better crop or supposed better growing environment cause i dont keep meticulous records and analise them.
                  like i could try but oh theres so many other variables to think of when doing that..
                  im sure some governement body has done better but from what ive ever researched from different papers, its just one word against the other.

                  can you tell me what your thoughts might be on this or is it all rule of thumb stuff and im on the right enough track.

                  Maurice?, your a farmer, ive checked out your ponds just now, lined on sides and clay bottom, what reasoning do you go by for getting things suitable?

                  Comment

                  • #39

                    Im going to measure the ponds this weekend and get the size of the ponds for you guys. I am also going to do your test Steve and post the info on that so you can tell me what you think. All I have to test the ph with is my pond test kit that I use on my koi pond in the yard, so far it has not failed me so I think if you say it is ok to use this I will.

                    Should I lime the pond and then wait a while before I ferterlize or should I do this at the same time?

                    Also I really want to try and get a fall spawn. How long would I have to keep them in cold water before they will spawn, and how would I go about this. I would think it would be hard to keep water cold. Is their some type of unit I can use to accomplish this? Or would it just be a waist of my time?

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                    • #40

                      ive just read kfg's post, ill go further into liming here.

                      we have been taught to lime the pond prior to filling a pond.
                      that would mean if you can let it dry out do so.
                      lime prior to filling, they say to spread it out on the bottom as evemly as possible.. ive seen this doen and still lime clumps can be present after a drain.

                      i water it down and splash/spray it along nice and thin.
                      the reason i do it before filling is to help kill bugs and things.
                      the alkalinity is high enough after this, otherwise id probly add it when full.

                      however im sure in cases it is added when a pond is full.
                      im guessing that this would be done with a good broadcast or stirring of some type. probably big farms use big machinery speaders or boats.

                      i myself then fill, then add fertiliser, the inorganics dissolve, thats why i add them to water. any inorganic can be added earlier or earliest as it takes time to decompose befroe it adds to pond life, i see them as a slow steady release that is there for use as it decomposes, inorganic are pretty instant go.
                      both types are used to provide a more even availability of more different elements for life, the inorganic contribute to all types of bacterias as well.
                      this way also you ahve a safety margin as compared to following just available nutrient EC.

                      what i dont understand is this prerequisite for koi to go through a cold temperature before spawning?? who can tell me what this is about.

                      i understand that most temperatures throughout a year will go threough a bell curve and that they like to breed after winter, but is it that you are saying that lows within the warm season promote the better spawning response?

                      one for you to explain kfg?

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                      • #41

                        ranskye, that little pH test does not tell you much of anything unless you have really acidic soil with no buffering capcaity. I will have to dig out the books to find how buffering capacity is determined as I have never measured that myself. Everyone here sends a soil sample off to the agricultural lab (usually associated with a state-run university) and gets a liming recommendation. The process is the same for aquaculture ponds and agricultural fields. You can also get them to make fertilization recommendations for field crops at the same time.

                        -steve hopkins

                        Comment

                        • #42

                          awww now i gotta use my head..hungover.

                          buffering capacity is sposed to be directly related to water alkalinity. which is not the same as highly alkaline soil or water (its not a pH measure).
                          i think thats where a lot of people are confused.

                          its a measure of the calicum carbonate and calcium bicarbonates, umm im thinking its more than just calcium carbonates actually as in magnesium carbonates also, these also contribute to the buffering bank but i think the basic test involves the carbonate hardness from calcium only but i may have that wrong in that the test may test for both mag and calc.

                          it goes something like this.

                          carbonate hardness test kit is a measure in ppm, it comes in a simple test kit, it tests for carbonate and bicarbonate and you are sposed to be able to use this as your test to see if you need to add lime, you add the drops into the 5ml vial and once the sample changes from blue to yellow, you count your drops used to change the colour and multiply it by ten.
                          for example you may come up with 3 drops times by ten and then you know you have 30mg per litre present. they say that under 20mg/l and you would have rather poor buffering and subsequently poor crops.. but between 40 and 80 is good enough. if for some reason you ocme across really high presence above 200mg/l then your waters/soils not so suitable either. dunno what they do if that happens..


                          however i think it would be of concern if you had waters/soils foir example that had a lot of magnesium making up your total hardness.. ie in some land forms you mayt have high amonts of magnesium which would also act as buffer. i think that the carbonate hardness only shows the calcium carbonate presence and that the total hardness test shows both calcium and magnesium and some other salts also. so i guess you would do both tests to work out what salts where making the difference.

                          as for how it works.. its the presence or amount of bicarbonate ions (dont blame me if ive got this wrong cause im no chemist)
                          but how i undrestand it is that the bicarbonate grab onto carbonic acids that are there in the water and so what this does is stop the pH going way low.
                          think that carbon dioxide would lower pH as an acid and that these carbonates hold them, bind with them and stop them causing so much effect to the parameter of pH.

                          if theres a lot of carbon dioxide around in the morning and then its used by a bloom (producing oxygen) then the pH rises casue theres no carbon-acids present.
                          obviously its not real good to have too much acids or carbon dioxide around..
                          anyone ever breathed in pure co2? the stuff is retched.. its like anti life.. and its funny that we put it in our soda drink..pure o2 on the other hand is clean and tastes like life.

                          as for your kh tests, those german ones i have absolutley no idea if theres any difference..but this has served me ok. cichlid growers run them up real high to mimic the lakes..and talk of kH but i think it be the same.

                          so if you have a night with no earation and maybe a lot of cloud the arvo before stopping any photosynthesis then your fish and bloom respires a lot then theres heaps of carbon dioxide around, if theres not much cabonate ions around then what happens is that there will be a lot of free roaming carbon dioxide that will lower pH.

                          the addition of lime will inittially raise the pH but thats worth it for the buffering ability now present.

                          still even with well buffered waters and trying to create big blooms full of food you can get high pH. too high for stocking. at thios tiome you can wait till it settles back, if the fish goes in there when its real high its worse than when it goes in at a suitable pH say around 8.5 give or take one.. and then rises throughout the day. thats a stress stocking if you wack em in when its high.
                          better to stock when the pH is lower in the morning.

                          one thing to remember is that with big water exchanges you can flush away your lime and therefor buffering capacity.

                          that is how thew water buffers against pH swings

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                          • #43

                            I dont know for sure that this is what triggers the females to bellie up or not, I have noted that they alway get full of eggs durining the winter. I just figured that since this happen durning the cold weather that if you reduced the temp for a period of time that the females should start filling up with eggs again. Mother nature is a stange thing and if you mimick her I would think it might work. If I could figure out a way to get the water cold enough and say leave them for about six weeks in cold water I believe that she would spawn again with a slow increase in temp It just makes since to me. To my understanding and I dont know where I heard this but koi need at least 6 weeks of cold in order to do their thing. I mean think about it. Mother nature know what she is doing, and I have alway had good luck with fish if I followed her. For instance when my water starts turning green in my pond the koi will always spawn right before it get so dark you cant see to the bottom. So if I want to do a spawn I would time it with her, when the water starts turning green its time. You may thing this is strange but it seam to work. I have noted two years straight that they spawn when water get nice and green.

                            If it has been proven to work I didn't do it Im just thinking and I may or may not have it right. One thing I can say for sure that If I had a way to keep the water cold for a least 6 weeks I would give it a try.

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                            • #44

                              you may just be right in that kfg.

                              i dont know, ive heard the cooling trip triggers a spawn but never noticed it myself, only if it gets cold before a rain..

                              however i do still spawn for a long period, i can get them to spawn twice in a year, it may just be that they do go through a rather short cool period with weather variation within the breeding season.never looked at that though.

                              i use the separation as a rule and never gave the other scenario a thought, i do know it can be used in lots of fish, fully controlled indoor environments to have them spawn 4 imes round the year..run them on a temperature schedule and a photo period as well, its not just temp dependant only. youd be best to change your light hours to short when you decrease temps and increase daylenght as you increase and they will THINK they have had another year..its just that you being mother nature forced it into a 3 month window only..

                              i wouldnt bother though cause the cost is more and then you have the cooler temps through winter for growth anyway but in your case you could give it a go using a simpler way, if i were you id pull some unspawned pairs apart and leave em waiting for when your ready, i dont see why they wont spawn when you put them together in new water.. should be no problem at all. mine will ussually always spawn on day one or two without the presence of green water. it may be that your water has nutrient in it which puts the spawn off till it cleans itslef up with the bloom absorbing nutrient.

                              if you like a male you can use him a few times anyway.

                              Comment

                              • #45

                                when our fisheries tries to do indoor spawn manipulation without hormones they het a temp chart and a photoperiod chart and compress it down to a shorter window. but theyve got the cash, you could run into thousands trying that when youve now got the benifit of extensive ponds..ENJOY!

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