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  • Injection doses

    I just wanted to get opinions on whether a prescrided dose should be reduced when injecting more that one type of antibiotic at the same time.

    For example, if I was injecting only Baythril and the dose required is 1cc, should I reduce that dose if I was to inject a combination of Baythril and Azactam?

    Also, how do injections affect the koi's liver?

    Thanks in advance.
  • #2

    Check out Duncan's book and www.koi-unleashed.co.uk

    There is an antibiotic chart at the website. The book probably has a bunch of info too.

    Comment

    • #3

      Great referral jason....I have a lot of respect for that man's knowledge regarding koi health! genuine good guy too!
      Dick Benbow

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      • #4

        You should not combine the 2 anti-biotics at the same time. Try to use Baytril first, if this med is not working, use the other.
        KN

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        • #5

          Originally posted by TategoiKohaku
          You should not combine the 2 anti-biotics at the same time. Try to use Baytril first, if this med is not working, use the other.
          KN
          My understanding was, as long as the medicines are for different bacteria strains such as gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria, then it's ok to use different medications at the same time.

          How about some KHA input.

          Comment

          • #6

            KHAs tend to leave the exact antibiotic used up to the vet doing the scrip. We'll also use Nick Saint-Erne's book as reference material (vets like that a vet wrote that book, I think).

            Combination of Amikacin and Azactam (actually two different shots) is pretty common. Baytril is usually done as a first go followed by something else (Amikacin, Nuflor, etc) as a second round if Baytril didn't help. Nexcel looks promising from the description on the chart, but I don't know of anybody using it.

            IF I was looking at a combination of Amikacin and Baytril I'd hit Baytril on days 1 & 2, and if no improvement I'd do combo on day 3 then day 5 and hope for best. Do one more Baytril on day 7.

            However, your vet may want to bypass Baytril and go with a different combo if there is no improvement by day 4. Gotta be fluid with these things...

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            • #7

              Originally posted by JasonS
              Check out Duncan's book and www.koi-unleashed.co.uk

              There is an antibiotic chart at the website. The book probably has a bunch of info too.
              Thanks for the website info Jason - It has a lot of good info. The antibiotic dose chart in this site is the one that I have been looking for.

              --Dinh

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              • #8

                Keep in mind that the chart info is from the Advanced Koi Care book. Also a very good book for some things.

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                • #9

                  Hi erwinsan,
                  I agree with JasonS that Vet combines 2 meds (Amikacin and Azactam) and it works sometimes. However, speaking from experience, I had fish died with the combined med. So like JasonS said go with Baytril as the first round and try Amikacin if Baytril does not work.
                  KN

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                  • #10

                    Hi erwinsan,
                    One thing I forgot to mention. Amekacin is very hard to the koi's kidney. I saved my favorite kohaku wit Amekacin, but the koi died later on due to the kidney failure.
                    KN

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                    • #11

                      I've never seen a koi die from use of an antibiotic. I've always used two antibiotics in combo so that you jump on the aromonas immediately and hit it hard. Unless one has performed a C&A test, I would always hit with both Azactam and Amikacin or whatever combo is in vogue in your area. I've seen hundreds of koi receive antibiotics.

                      Mike Pfeffer
                      Mike Pfeffer
                      Northern Midwest ZNA show
                      June 19 - 20, 2010
                      Season's Garden Nursery
                      Fishers, IN

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Hi Erwinsan, just took this tread today because I had a lot af work this week.

                        When you use two or more antibiotics together there are different kind of association:
                        - some antibiotics are synergics, that mean that one increase the power of the other (like if you count 1+1=3), you normaly use that kind of association
                        - some are antagonist, one decrease the action of the other (like if you count 1+1=0), never use that association
                        - some are indipendent, each antibiotics working alone (1+1=2)

                        You also have two kind of antibiotics, bactericide (that kill bactery) and bacteriostatic (that doesn't aloww the bactery to multiplicate) and you should never use antibiotics of different familly together.

                        Then you have antibiotics active again gram+ or again gram- and also again both.

                        And to finish, when you use different antibiotics, if they are eliminate by the same way (kidney for example for most of them) you increase the toxicity and you can kill your fish.

                        In conclusion if you use an antibiotic like Baytril or Nuflor, they treat both Gram - and +, you normaly don't need to associate them to an other.

                        But the best way to do is to begin with only antibiotic which treat gram+ and -, and ask an antibiogram to a laboratory in case the antibiotic doesn't work, so you will have the perfect antibiotic for the germ responsable of your problem.

                        Good luck
                        Marco

                        Originally posted by erwinsan
                        My undserstanding was, as long as the medicines are for different bacteria strains such as gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria, then it's ok to use different medications at the same time.

                        How about some KHA input.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Sorry to tell you that I have already seen, dogs, cat, calves, fishes killed by antibiotics used in a wrong way, bad association or bad concentration.

                          Antibiotics can have a big toxicity for kidney, lever and some times provoque some cardiac damage. Just loock at the notice when you use them for you, you'll be affraid..
                          Don't use them like peper and salt when you'r koocking.
                          Regards, Marco
                          Originally posted by l113892
                          I've never seen a koi die from use of an antibiotic. I've always used two antibiotics in combo so that you jump on the aromonas immediately and hit it hard. Unless one has performed a C&A test, I would always hit with both Azactam and Amikacin or whatever combo is in vogue in your area. I've seen hundreds of koi receive antibiotics.

                          Mike Pfeffer

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            My point was that I have never injected a fish and killed it. All the other cautions Marco mentions are correct.

                            I disagree with Marco's math 1 + 1 = 3. Basically all antibiotics target specific strains of aeromonas(salmonicida, caviae, sobria, veronii, hydrophilila, etc.) or pseudomonas. If you have a culture and sensitivity test performed, you can find out which injectible would have the best success rate for the particular strain of aeromonas or pseudo. that you are dealing with. Most won't wait for C&S test and will choose a broad spectrum antibiotic and combine it with another broad spectrum antibiotic. Antibiotics such as Amikacin and Gentamicin present the potential for liver damage so you have to be conservation/careful with those.

                            Mike Pfeffer
                            Mike Pfeffer
                            Northern Midwest ZNA show
                            June 19 - 20, 2010
                            Season's Garden Nursery
                            Fishers, IN

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Hi marco,
                              I strongly agree with you. Those antibiotics are good for clearing aromonas or pseudo, but they are very toxic to kidney and liver. Therefore, we try use other methods as much as we can unless it's really needed.
                              KN

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