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Question about hi development - red line

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  • Question about hi development - red line

    This is DH Mike's Sanke that he picked out, and he wanted me to ask if you all thought her hi would become deeper and redder over time or not. The hi color is now uniformly very bold orange, not red.

    I thought there was some significance to the thin, red line running vertically through the middle of the scale of a young fish (tosai Momotaro) but unsure.....I do not have the depth of knowledge to answer him correctly.

    Found a past thread from 2004 that discusses what I am looking for somewhat, but none of the pictures are attached anymore, so I've asked.

    http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/showth...light=red+line
    Attached Files
  • #2

    How old is fishy ? From Pic does not look that old. No depth of fukurin as I can see.

    Got any full shots... also pics of the shoulder area if you have one..

    Joe
    It's a living creature (chit happens)

    Comment

    • #3

      Where is this Sanke from Jen? But looking at the beni, it looks to be Matsunosuke Bloodline. The Beni looks shallow and down. This must be due to the water temp there. The beni will come up later but not scarlet red, this bloodline always comes up a brighter deeper persimmion when it gets older. I wouldn't worry about the beni, it just needs time to mature...
      The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

      Comment

      • #4

        Originally posted by keokoi
        How old is fishy ? From Pic does not look that old. No depth of fukurin as I can see.

        Got any full shots... also pics of the shoulder area if you have one..

        Joe
        She is still tosai - do not know exact b-day. She is a growing girl..she was about 17" end of May when purchased, now closer to 19". Here is same pic. showing more of fish.

        Don't have good shot of full fish -do not have a show bowl yet. (Should have ordered one before Mike put "koi spending moratorium" on me. Have to figure out way to sneak one past him....tell him it's for washing the dog or something ) Been using a large, shallow, white styrofoam coolor for shipping saltwater fish to "bowl"....not very photogenic environment for koi.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by mulberryjen; 07-08-2005, 01:18 AM. Reason: oops forgot pix

        Comment

        • #5

          In time it will thicken up so it looks like. If 19" prolly looking at sansai.. Fish has long way to go.. Who did you buy it from? Might be able to narrow it down to breeders..

          Joe
          It's a living creature (chit happens)

          Comment

          • #6

            Originally posted by aquitori
            Where is this Sanke from Jen? But looking at the beni, it looks to be Matsunosuke Bloodline. The Beni looks shallow and down. This must be due to the water temp there. The beni will come up later but not scarlet red, this bloodline always comes up a brighter deeper persimmion when it gets older. I wouldn't worry about the beni, it just needs time to mature...

            Japan? She is from Momotaro, that is all I know. (sorry so dumb)

            Mike says he loves her no matter what, even if she stays orange, she's his big baby. But he threatens my Hosokai showa (same hi color) b/c he doesn't like his lumpy head and that he splashes us all the time. I tell him to be patient and leave my fish alone. I will be curious to see how their beni develops over time since water around here is fairly hard.

            By the way, got new food in yesterday. So mixing Ogata wheat germ, Hai Feng quik-gro, and Ogata Silk power. Stupid beagle dog likes it - she shoved her head in the container and snorted up a big mouthful!! I'll post pix. if she starts turning colors....

            Comment

            • #7

              Originally posted by keokoi
              In time it will thicken up so it looks like. If 19" prolly looking at sansai.. Fish has long way to go.. Who did you buy it from? Might be able to narrow it down to breeders..

              Joe
              Carl at Keirin - Momotaro fish

              Ooops, looks like we're posting at same time

              Comment

              • #8

                Originally posted by mulberryjen
                Japan? She is from Momotaro, that is all I know. (sorry so dumb)

                Mike says he loves her no matter what, even if she stays orange, she's his big baby. But he threatens my Hosokai showa (same hi color) b/c he doesn't like his lumpy head and that he splashes us all the time. I tell him to be patient and leave my fish alone. I will be curious to see how their beni develops over time since water around here is fairly hard.

                By the way, got new food in yesterday. So mixing Ogata wheat germ, Hai Feng quik-gro, and Ogata Silk power. Stupid beagle dog likes it - she shoved her head in the container and snorted up a big mouthful!! I'll post pix. if she starts turning colors....
                Oh if Momotaro and you from Kentucky you must have gotten it from Keirin Koi...

                Joe
                It's a living creature (chit happens)

                Comment

                • #9

                  I bought two tosai momotaro kohakus few years ago from a local
                  dealer here in Norcal. They were same size. One has a deep red
                  that I picked by myself. The other one has very thin hi and kind
                  of orange like Mike's Sanke. I didn't appriciate much for the orange
                  tone as well as so thin to me at that time. But this one was picked
                  by AKCA judge Larry Gil, who happened was there at that time.
                  With all respects to Larry, I bought it without any question.

                  About one year later in my pond, the color of this orange became vey
                  thick and very very beautiful bright and deep persimmon. It is one of my best
                  kohaku in my pond now. So, since it is tosai, be patient. The beautiful
                  of it will come ......

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    I got to see my Momo Kohak from last Years Auction in Sept. Hi was thin.. I got to see the Kohak last trip in April over there. The Hi has thickened up quite a bit in a short amount of time. I reckon be patient and learn from her Lineage so keep her around....

                    Joe
                    It's a living creature (chit happens)

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Red Line

                      The growth line in the scale shows concentrated pigment. There were articles written decades ago stating that the scale would become as red as the growth line upon maturity. This is not necessarily true and is likely not true more often than it is. It is most likely reliable to think the red will intensify as the fish ceases to grow rapidly to the point that the color is more like the intensity of the concentrated pigment in the growth line. The presence of the red line shows that the Hi is not a superficial stain, but real pigment that is part of the scale/skin layers.

                      The shade of red that will develop and how orange it may be is better predicted by knowledge of the parentage and bloodline. Among Sanke from virtually all "name" breeders, the Matsunosuke magoi-derived bloodline has become so universally mixed in that Sanke are more likely now to keep an orange tone to the red than was the case, say, 20 years ago. There will still be a red growth line of concentrated pigment that looks as intensely red as could ever imagine, but the likelihood is that the Matsunosuke-derived Sanke are going to keep an orange tone to their red.

                      The time to worry is when no red line is visible. Then you are likely seeing a different sort of Hi, and it could be a superficial staining of color that will fade.

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Thank you all for the excellent information. The collective knowledge base available here is incredible. Having Koi-Bito forum as a resource is like gold for me as a fledgling koi-keeper. This kind of communication helps koikeepers everywhere improve on their skills - technology at its finest!

                        I'll take good care of Sanke and pay attention to her development over time.

                        Thank you!

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          I bought a Momo sanke, with about the same type of red as in the picture. That koi was a total flop as far as beni is concerned.

                          stan

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            Yep. Lots of imperfection in this world.

                            The best points of Matsunosuke-derived Sanke IMO are length, body structure than can handle size, and quality Sumi. Certainly, there are individuals that stand out as having the "complete package"; but the general run IMO do not have the great Hi, only "O.K." Hi. And the Shiro is O.K., but with a tendency not to be as crisp and clean as other bloodlines. And, the Sumi too often comes up in blotches, rather than concentrated pools of pigment. Patterns are not as refined as in the older lines of Sanke that had their heyday in the 1980's. That does not mean Matsunosuke is not a great bloodline. It is a great bloodline and a huge step in Nishikigoi development. But, as with any genetic line of koi, most individuals lack the complete package. Too often folks seem to think that because they acquired Matsunosuke bloodline koi, that they have "everything". It simply is not that easy.

                            Unfortunately, the same is true with all the "best" lines.

                            Comment

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