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  • Question about marudo kohaku?

    My local dealer has an amazing 6 inch marudo bloodline kohaku (bred by blackwater creek in florida). The color and conformation are excellent. The weak points are: There are several shimmi's. The tail stop is right exactly at the tail. No real space between the last step and the tail....I mean riiiight theeere. My real question is, can the tail stop improve as this fish grows? Will the hi recede back onto the body, much like when it is present on the dorsal fin of a small fish. I am really torn, because on first inspection, this fish looks ready to win a show. Should I worry a great deal about the shimmi's? I appreciate all opinions...thanks.
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  • #2

    Hi does not recede that much on most bloodlines nowadays, not on a fish that is already 6" to adult. From your discription, you seem impressed with coloration even with shimmi's. You don't really want developed color at this size, females should be very undeveloped, so you are likely just picking out a male, an early finishing one. Of course some people look for fish like this for baby GC potential. Blackwater does produce some nice fish, I got 2 asagi in April that where ~2.5-3" (unplanned winter spawn) that are growing like weeds.

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    • #3

      Hi Ryan..I bought an asagi from them too. I went back to see the kohaku again. The hi just touches the tail dammit!! I decided not to buy it. The fish really looked great though. I told the dealer to throw it in his pond to grow it out. He said he might....that way I can kick myself later when it looks amazing...LOL!!!
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      If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

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      • #4

        It will look better later on, but the tail stop will likely not improve. As has been suggested. The shimis? well.. those that get them often seem to continue to get them, especially in the same water. Mike Pfeffer has a nice Marudo Kohaku that I have never seen a shimi on. Hopefully he will comment here.
        Best regards,

        Bob Winkler

        My opinions are my best interpretation of my experiences. They are not set in stone as I intend to always be a student of life. And Koi.

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        • #5

          Marudo Kohaku

          could u explain where the marudo bloodline derived from

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          • #6

            Originally posted by tara View Post
            could u explain where the marudo bloodline derived from
            From past readings I think Marudo's first used Sensuke Bloodline from Sakai Hiroshima....I could be wrong....anyone else want to elborate?
            The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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            • #7

              marudo

              thanks for the help could it be a mix with a chagoi

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              • #8

                No. Why do you ask?

                Contemporary Kohaku lines come from Kohaku for many generations back. There are individual Kohaku that have Sanke in their recent ancestry, but these would not be considered lines.

                Chagoi is a coarse, unrefined variety. That is, it would reduce the level of genetic accomplishment achieved in Kohaku. Crossing Kohaku and Chagoi produces a range of phenotypes, but not much even vaguely resembling a contemporary gosanke. I do not know the origin of Chagoi. It seems to be lost in the mist of time. It is reported that among Niigata breeders it is thought Chagoi arose from a crossing of Doro Magoi (mud carp) and Asagi. If this is true, then Kohaku and Chagoi are related through their roots in Asagi. That's about as genetically distant as one can get among nishikigoi. I would guess the only reason to cross Chagoi and Kohaku would be to try for a version of Ochiba Shigure, or to re-create Kohaku with a different body over many generations, similar to Toshio Sakai introducing magoi genes into the Matsunosuke line of Sanke.

                In another thread it was suggested that you review Nishikigoi Mondo for an understanding of Kohaku bloodlines. It has discussion and charts concerning about 40 named "lines" from Niigata. What it teaches is that different breeders at different times had success in producing excellent Kohaku for that time in history, and a name was ascribed to what the breeder produced. All of the breeders select oyagoi from among other breeder's production, and continually seek to improve their overall production. From a genetic perspective, everything is mixed together there are no true bloodlines. What does exist are brands. In many respects, "Marudo" has become a brand denoting the source of a koi. It does not designate a bloodline. As was noted in another thread, Marudo produces Kohaku with several different types of beni. This is due to the use of oyagoi of mixed ancestry, just like every other breeder.

                The search for genetic bloodlines in Kohaku can be an enjoyable pursuit of history for those so inclined, but there is nothing to be found in the world of today at the end of the quest. ...Except, an appreciation for the industry of breeders who have done so much to make the contemporary Kohaku such a piece of living art.

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                • #9

                  An OLD thread!!! I did not buy that kohaku, but bought other Marudo kohaku over the years. I have to say I was not thrilled. Many problems with black shimmi's. My Hoshikin never gets one, so it may be the breeding/bloodline. I do recommend the book Koi vol 1 by Bachmann to learn more about bloodlines.
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                  • #10

                    Originally posted by Brutuscz View Post
                    An OLD thread!!! I did not buy that kohaku, but bought other Marudo kohaku over the years. I have to say I was not thrilled. Many problems with black shimmi's. My Hoshikin never gets one, so it may be the breeding/bloodline. I do recommend the book Koi vol 1 by Bachmann to learn more about bloodlines.

                    Bobby, I have both a Marudo & Hoshikin Kohaku , The Marudo doesn't have a single Shimi while the Hoshikin has two. I guess you just never know.
                    President : GLK&GS
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                    • #11

                      besides genetics, water chemistry has a lot to do with shimi and it's appearance. surface ones can easily be removed.....
                      Dick Benbow

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                      • #12

                        Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
                        besides genetics, water chemistry has a lot to do with shimi and it's appearance. surface ones can easily be removed.....
                        I agree with Dick. Consider that the larger breeders that we hear about use many different parent koi for the sake of discussion let's say they have 12 potential female parents and 24 male parents. Some are given a year off and some die plus the males which provide 50% of the genetics are paired at 2 to 3 to a single female. At most females would only be bred on average perhaps 6-7 years but likely not in consecutive years. The average number of years would be less and sometime only once. Also individual males can be matched to different females year to year. So the percentage of identical pairings year to year and especially over a span of several years can change dramatically. I have heard that some breeders try for 50% repeat pairings and 50% new pairings.

                        I said all this to point out that when you have a good or a bad experience with a specific breeders koi it likely has very little to do the genetics of another koi you would get from the same breeder a few years later. In fact it might have near zero relationship. Even if you buy koi from the same breeder and the same female parent you are likely only getting 50% of the same genetics.

                        Remember that the "look" of the koi from a specific breeder has several components. Genetics, phenotype based on breeders culling focus, and environmental issues such as weather, pond size and location. Add to this that all major breeders produce several grades of koi even from the same exact parents.

                        If a well know breeder had a significant higher or lower occurrence of something like shimi or hikui they would be out of business or their koi price would soar to the point few could afford them.
                        Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

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                        • #13

                          Could have been bad luck, Water chemistry or anything else. Marudo is an excellent breeder, no doubt about it. I have even read about superficial, round mineral based shimmi's. Although I have never been able to identify the minerals involved. Possibly iron or magnesium??
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                          If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

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                          • #14

                            Originally posted by RayJordan View Post
                            I agree with Dick. Consider that the larger breeders that we hear about use many different parent koi for the sake of discussion let's say they have 12 potential female parents and 24 male parents. Some are given a year off and some die plus the males which provide 50% of the genetics are paired at 2 to 3 to a single female. At most females would only be bred on average perhaps 6-7 years but likely not in consecutive years. The average number of years would be less and sometime only once. Also individual males can be matched to different females year to year. So the percentage of identical pairings year to year and especially over a span of several years can change dramatically. I have heard that some breeders try for 50% repeat pairings and 50% new pairings.

                            I said all this to point out that when you have a good or a bad experience with a specific breeders koi it likely has very little to do the genetics of another koi you would get from the same breeder a few years later. In fact it might have near zero relationship. Even if you buy koi from the same breeder and the same female parent you are likely only getting 50% of the same genetics.

                            Remember that the "look" of the koi from a specific breeder has several components. Genetics, phenotype based on breeders culling focus, and environmental issues such as weather, pond size and location. Add to this that all major breeders produce several grades of koi even from the same exact parents.

                            If a well know breeder had a significant higher or lower occurrence of something like shimi or hikui they would be out of business or their koi price would soar to the point few could afford them.
                            Ray: That's an excellent post. There is always discussion about different breeders, bloodlines and the like. Those discussions are really about a small percentage of a breeder's production in a particular year, or what they produced in years past. We do not put comments in context. I think we should start a new thread on the subject. ...

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