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  • "Humps"

    I would like to see what is everyone's opinion on shoulder humps on koi. I have seen it written and have heard judges talk about how it is an indicator of large bone structure and future growth. I have also seen opinions that they don't like the humps and that it can be a sign of an overfed koi.
    Also for those that like the humps, when should you start to see it on koi that are going to be jumbo size? Is there an age that might be premature or if seen in later age koi can it be a sign of later growth?
  • #2

    The notion that a hump is a sign of future growth is not accurate. I have had more than one grow to only moderate size. I also have not noted any correlation with the bone structure possessed by koi that do grow very large. To the contrary, I'd say there is a tendency for young koi destined to grow large not to have a hump.

    My observation has been that an enlarged shoulder hump comes from high quantities of food, particularly during periods when the fish is not putting on length. The hump develops from the storage of fat. When the koi is in a period of rapid growth, it puts nutritional energy into growth over fat deposition. To create an enlarged hump, feed heavily when the water is in the low to mid 60sF. In that temperature range, the fish eats very well and has good metabolism, but growth in length is stymied. The excess nutrition is stored as fat. Of course, feeding heavily on a constant basis encourages development of an enlarged shoulder hump.

    A couple of experiences .... A few summers ago, it hardly got warm in the mid-atlantic area. That Fall at the Nisei Koi Farm harvest, there were far more nisai with enlarged shoulder humps than I have observed at any other harvest. About 10 or so years ago I acquired a 14" nisai Showa imported from Japan. The shoulder hump was gargantuan. I learned that the Showa had been kept in an outdoor pond fed by a mountain spring that was always very cool. No fish in that pond grew well, but they all had large humps. I still have that Showa. She lost the hump in one season of growth and has never had it again.

    Now, we'll see if others have had different observations.

    Comment

    • #3

      Yes, a pronounced shoulder hump is an expression of a body type, or lineage,... and feeding and pond size and depth can enhance this genetic expression in some cases. It has very little to do with growth potential though. This expression or hump can be seen on short stocky Koi,... as well as on larger Koi. The Manzo Kohaku lineage is known to have this body type.

      i see about 4 distinct body types in Koi.

      Brady Brandwood

      A pic of a common carp.

      Comment

      • #4

        Originally posted by Brady Brandwood View Post
        Yes, a pronounced shoulder hump is an expression of a body type, or lineage,... and feeding and pond size and depth can enhance this genetic expression in some cases. It has very little to do with growth potential though. This expression or hump can be seen on short stocky Koi,... as well as on larger Koi. The Manzo Kohaku lineage is known to have this body type.

        i see about 4 distinct body types in Koi.

        Brady Brandwood

        A pic of a common carp.


        Brady,
        Would you mind discussing the body types, how you differentiate, and what your expectations are.

        Comment

        • #5

          Originally posted by bobbysuzanna View Post
          I would like to see what is everyone's opinion on shoulder humps on koi. I have seen it written and have heard judges talk about how it is an indicator of large bone structure and future growth. I have also seen opinions that they don't like the humps and that it can be a sign of an overfed koi.
          Also for those that like the humps, when should you start to see it on koi that are going to be jumbo size? Is there an age that might be premature or if seen in later age koi can it be a sign of later growth?
          Years ago, some experts of the day would explain to us newbies that judges preferred female Koi... and a hump was preferred because it gave the Koi a "masculine" look.

          Comment

          • #6

            Originally posted by bobbysuzanna View Post
            Brady,
            Would you mind discussing the body types, how you differentiate, and what your expectations are.
            Hi Dear Bros,I just purchased a 33cm long kohaku with visible shoulder hump.Any comment is very much appreciated.Thank you.
            Attached Files

            Comment

            • #7

              There were several questions about shoulder humps at the beginning of this thread.There are many different opinions about shoulder humps. They are more common with certain breeders lines of koi and less common with others. Brady provided an excellent photo of an example of a carp with a wild type body that includes a hump.

              I have been taught that a moderate shoulder hump on a otherwise high quality koi is acceptable but the ideal conformation is a gradual slope from the nose to the tail from all angles of view including a side view looking at the top and bottom curve of the body. So in my opinion a high quality koi with a significant shoulder hump would be even better if it had a more gradual sloping shoulder.

              Regarding show quality koi the goal is refinement of all traits i.e., conformation, skin, color and pattern vs the less refined types of genetic expression.
              Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

              Comment

              • #8

                Originally posted by tgkh0938 View Post
                Hi Dear Bros,I just purchased a 33cm long kohaku with visible shoulder hump.Any comment is very much appreciated.Thank you.
                Good Day Brother

                Probably a short video to help show us the shoulder hump better in this young tosai ??
                Can't see the hump displayed in this photo , but rather the partial exposure of the fish above water level that display a misleading visual of a shoulder hump ? I hope this is a fair comment ?

                David

                Comment

                • #9

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Have to agree with Brother Mike and Brother BB . The notion that a hump is a sign of future growth is indeed never accurate , but rather an expression of a lineage or the genetic display of the koi with the inherent X-factor , and of course it has to be WELL FED !! .

                  David

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by DavidSoon View Post
                    Good Day Brother

                    Probably a short video to help show us the shoulder hump better in this young tosai ??
                    Can't see the hump displayed in this photo , but rather the partial exposure of the fish above water level that display a misleading visual of a shoulder hump ? I hope this is a fair comment ?

                    David
                    Hi Bro David,Thank you for your fair comment.I have tried to upload a short video but failed.I will keep trying.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Originally posted by tgkh0938 View Post
                      Hi Bro David,Thank you for your fair comment.I have tried to upload a short video but failed.I will keep trying.
                      No worries Brother , you can either upload video by signing up in Youtube and upload the video direct in youtube . Once you have upload your video into Utube , you can embed the video id using the red Tube button from the toolbar when you prepare your post here. Hope this help .

                      I was at the All Japan Koi Show 2 years ago , and saw some " Dream Koi " displayed by few breeders at the exhibition hall . I arrived at the Matsue vat and saw some beautiful kohaku tosai displayed , and guess they were in the size range of 10-12 inches . Most were going for 500,000 Yen , while some we spotted were having the million Yen asking price .... .
                      When we asked on the price difference , reply was " strong fish !! look at the hump ne !! " ..... Value added trait , I guess we have to blame it on trend !!!

                      David

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by DavidSoon View Post
                        Most were going for 500,000 Yen , while some we spotted were having the million Yen asking price .... .
                        When we asked on the price difference , reply was " strong fish !! look at the hump ne !! " ..... Value added trait , I guess we have to blame it on trend !!!

                        David
                        Good Morning Brother David,

                        I have to ask...if fish with humps are more valuable, why are they not winning in shows in Japan? The fact that they are absent from shows, tells me that the Japanese judges might not have favorable view on fish with distintive hump.

                        Sunny

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Originally posted by Tosai_Sunny View Post
                          Good Morning Brother David,

                          I have to ask...if fish with humps are more valuable, why are they not winning in shows in Japan? The fact that they are absent from shows, tells me that the Japanese judges might not have favorable view on fish with distintive hump.

                          Sunny
                          Good Day Brother Sunny

                          Believe these 2 winners were good representation of hump

                          Alexandria Kohaku



                          2008 All Japan Grand Champion on Vimeo.mp4 - YouTube



                          Shinkokai 2011 Grand Champion, M Kohaku II - YouTube

                          As much as we love to see thick tail tube of a big winning fish , a well developed hump certainly complete the majestic look ..

                          David
                          Last edited by DavidSoon; 11-08-2011, 04:53 AM.

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            Originally posted by DavidSoon View Post
                            Good Day Brother Sunny

                            Believe these 2 winners were good representations of hump

                            Alexandria Kohaku - 2008 All Japan Koi Show Grand Champion



                            2008 All Japan Koi Show Grand Champion on Vimeo.mp4 - YouTube

                            M Kohaku - 2011 All Japan Koi Show Grand Champion



                            Shinkokai 2011 Grand Champion, M Kohaku II - YouTube

                            As much as we love to see thick tail tube of a big winning fish , a well developed hump certainly complete the majestic look ..

                            David
                            p.s - there is a huge buying craze on female that carry this trait .

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Humps

                              Originally posted by DavidSoon View Post
                              No worries Brother , you can either upload video by signing up in Youtube and upload the video direct in youtube . Once you have upload your video into Utube , you can embed the video id using the red Tube button from the toolbar when you prepare your post here. Hope this help .

                              I was at the All Japan Koi Show 2 years ago , and saw some " Dream Koi " displayed by few breeders at the exhibition hall . I arrived at the Matsue vat and saw some beautiful kohaku tosai displayed , and guess they were in the size range of 10-12 inches . Most were going for 500,000 Yen , while some we spotted were having the million Yen asking price .... .
                              When we asked on the price difference , reply was " strong fish !! look at the hump ne !! " ..... Value added trait , I guess we have to blame it on trend !!!

                              David
                              Hi Bro David,Thank you so much for your guidance.I hope you can see the video on the Youtube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcywcEZ61M4
                              Last edited by tgkh0938; 11-08-2011, 04:23 AM. Reason: some words missing

                              Comment

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