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Inheritance of long fins in koi

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  • #16

    I would like to comment last PapaBear’s and JasPR’s posts. This study described a gene which controls appearance of long fins. But it does not mean that other factors cannot influence the expression of this gene. There is saying in genetics that genotype is not combination of genes but ‘norm of reaction’. It means that individual with certain genotype develops certain phenotype under certain environmental conditions. If conditions will change phenotype will be different. It is known that the fin length in long-fin koi is dependent on environmental conditions. If fish grow fast the elongation of fins will be not so profound. I would not compare relative fin length in butterfly koi from the same progeny raised in different ponds or tanks. Also with age fins in butterfly koi become well-developed. Practically in order to compare expression of ‘long fin’ gene we should compare fish of the same age raised at the same (or similar) conditions. It is especially difficult to compare several generations (parents and offspring).

    There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.

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    • #17

      Originally posted by BorG View Post

      There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.
      this description is reflected in many phenotpic expressions in patterned koi

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      • #18

        Originally posted by BorG View Post
        I would like to comment last PapaBear’s and JasPR’s posts. This study described a gene which controls appearance of long fins. But it does not mean that other factors cannot influence the expression of this gene. There is saying in genetics that genotype is not combination of genes but ‘norm of reaction’. It means that individual with certain genotype develops certain phenotype under certain environmental conditions. If conditions will change phenotype will be different. It is known that the fin length in long-fin koi is dependent on environmental conditions. If fish grow fast the elongation of fins will be not so profound. I would not compare relative fin length in butterfly koi from the same progeny raised in different ponds or tanks. Also with age fins in butterfly koi become well-developed. Practically in order to compare expression of ‘long fin’ gene we should compare fish of the same age raised at the same (or similar) conditions. It is especially difficult to compare several generations (parents and offspring).

        There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.
        Good Morning Boris, certainly what you say is true. As demonstrated in danio and barb domestic bred species, hypertrophy is a common event in this family of fishes. And if one looks at the different strains and lines of the simple zebra danio you will see 'styles' of hypertrophy. Some zebra danio showing wide, long fins and others carrying a more ragged look with lobes within the carriage.
        But I have seen intermediate finnage forms in koi- a intermediate expression of the gene code for hypertrophy.
        And I want to clarify the statement regarding size and length--- there are true koi with natural bodies and fins but fins of a very large size- they are within the dimensions of the body which is also large. Some female jumbois for instance have amazingly large ( in judging we use the term 'tall' fins and they are also very wide.) But the proportions are normal for the wild type fish body. I think you referenced the Rinko magazine that carries the ZNA standard for judging. As I said before, hypertrophy is a normal sport found in koi and is one of those traits that is considered a deformity ( or at least was for generations) and is destryoed along with fish showing facial and other finnage abnormalities. So the ZNA which runs shows fundamentally like a soundness live stock show, have set up a rational regarding disqualification of hypertrophy as per the LENGTH of the tail in relationship to the body. JR

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        • #19

          Originally posted by BorG View Post
          I would like to comment last PapaBear’s and JasPR’s posts. This study described a gene which controls appearance of long fins. But it does not mean that other factors cannot influence the expression of this gene. There is saying in genetics that genotype is not combination of genes but ‘norm of reaction’. It means that individual with certain genotype develops certain phenotype under certain environmental conditions. If conditions will change phenotype will be different. It is known that the fin length in long-fin koi is dependent on environmental conditions. If fish grow fast the elongation of fins will be not so profound. I would not compare relative fin length in butterfly koi from the same progeny raised in different ponds or tanks. Also with age fins in butterfly koi become well-developed. Practically in order to compare expression of ‘long fin’ gene we should compare fish of the same age raised at the same (or similar) conditions. It is especially difficult to compare several generations (parents and offspring).

          There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.
          And therein lies a great deal of the "rub" if you will.
          The expression of Hypertrophy is just as easily influenced by water temperature and chemistry during the embryonic stage and early growth period after hatching as from the base genotype at the moment of fertilization. There mere fact that a normal genotype can mutate due to external influences during development complicates the entire "if-then" scenario for predicting progeny outcomes. You mention "selection" as a facilitator for controlling the expression rate of the main gene, which is absolutly true. After all, it was "environmental selection" (warm, stagnant water) that likely produced the original hypertrophic expression in the first place.
          Larry Iles
          Oklahoma

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          • #20

            Ya know I was thinking------- ( always a dangerous idea!) --------


            If you look back on all the references and all the armchair theories of WHERE longfin carp came from, you begin to see two assumptions emerge;

            a) that the appearance of longfin carp was a singular event

            b) that longfins can be traced to that single source.


            As regards a) We once had three theories that continue to haunt the myth surrounding longfin. The first is that some isolated couple breeding goldfish in the Pacific Northwest created longfins from goldfish and koi! Innocent enough, probably a real story and an honest extrapolation of a single event but hardly THE source for longfins as longfins are shipped in from all over the world. The second theory is that a single Japanese breeder using Indonesian longfins to bring size and vigor into his koi ( a varitaion of this is that the Japanese emperor ordered it and also that the nishikigoi breeding station came up with some hybrids from the emperor's Indonesian sources), created the longfin. Again, fact based but not THE source. We also have documented ( TFH publications) the importation of Blue Ridge domestic koi and goldfish producer as THE source of longfins in America-- again factual, close but no cigar. No cigar simply because the imports had to come from somewhere where there were more than just the few!

            Well we've come a long way in this story and all should now know and accept that hypertrophy ( spontaneous mutation that causes organs or characteristics to become elongated) is common in fish family we are talking about.
            Building on this spontaneous sport occurance, it is reasonable to accept that the strain of carp in Indonesia that showed hypertrophy ( long fins) was common and established by the 1980s. There is no doubt that the Japanese got an indonesian strain of longfin carp from Indonesia. And it may be that Blue Ridge's wholesale tropical fish exporter had indonsian longfin carp as well as the Chinese tropical fish trade has been well established since 1960s and used poorer southern countries for sources and grow out. But certainly, there is more than one story regarding longfin carp.
            Indonesia is blessed with lots of water! And feral as well as domesticated carp live in captive and wild conditions. Indeed there are natural sub species of common carp throughout south east Asian and lots of trading for centuries to further mess up a nice and neat separation between wild, feral and true domestic strains.
            And unlike the unique and one in a million chance of other countries producing nishikigoi ( a very complex yet consentrated mutation gene pool) , simple hypertrophy is not hard to produce in any country of the world. And also in the wild especially amongst feral ( once domestic) strains that already have this gene concentrated. Catching them then with other native tropical species is certainly possible.
            Because 'longfin carp' come in so many distinct looks and shapes-- it is very likely that longfin carp are a complex of types and from multiple sources. This does not mean however that there are not prototype strains common in ornamental distribution chains.
            I personally liked the first imports to Blue Ridge. While the Japanese described the carp longfins into Japan as large brown/grey ugly food shaped bodies of great height and vigor and with long flowing fins, the finglerings of Blue ridge were long and with the long whiskers that made the fish look very exotic- they also had large striking eyes with hypertrophy appointments at the nostrils-- true dragon look.
            Finally the exporters of Thailand and Hong kong send over a longfin with a very short and globe shaped body ( a lot like a goldfish) and with barbels but rather short barbels for a longfin.
            In all these cases, the most stunning examples are the all black, all silver, all yellow and kawari type longfin carp of the original Indonesia import look. A unique strain that really deserves the name Dragon carp. What a shame that we tried to make them look like Nishikigoi with long fins--a real left turn down a dead end. how great would it be if someone had the vision of the longfin carp as the dragon carp-- a long sleek kawari with long flowing barbels ( all four as a standard) and long flowing fins that made teh fish look like the chinese dragons of folklore. Now THAT would be something!! In black, blue, red, silver and brown and grey, yellow and grey and black and white.. very cool! JR

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            • #21

              Long fins sell on eBay.

              From back in November 2011;



              "Supply and DEMAND"

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              • #22

                right! Now find me a great whiskered, longfin in black or grey and black! Doitsu in silver and yellow or black and white-- need those long barbels and these long flowing fins.!

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                • #23

                  more eBay

                  Originally posted by JasPR View Post
                  right! Now find me a great whiskered, longfin in black or grey and black! Doitsu in silver and yellow or black and white-- need those long barbels and these long flowing fins.!
                  Not GREAT (but the seller thinks so);

                  20" - 21" HIGH QUALITY BUTTERFLY KARASUGOI JAPANESE LIVE KOI FISH

                  I had to add this one;

                  BEAUTIFUL 18" H.Q. KAWARI BUTTERFLY LIVE KOI FISH "LOOK" ONE IN A BILLION KOI.

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                  • #24

                    Originally posted by JasPR View Post
                    But longfins don't really have any value? JR
                    Visual and enjoyment, but there is not a market or mass appeal worldwide as there is with traditional koi.

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                    • #25

                      Originally posted by ricshaw View Post
                      and the breeder is Marudo ????????

                      guess we should ask Devin if he was secretly doing longfins when over there
                      Paul Korf

                      member of:
                      Midwest Pond and Koi Society
                      Louisville Koi club
                      IKONA

                      Comment

                      • #26

                        we are all spoiled and over educated when it comes to Nishikigoi! the skin and the quality is a dimension in and of itself. And the natural look of a strong powerful koi is not to be denied!
                        But if you see longfins as I do, a unique species that expresses an entirely different impression, then skin quality and natural look are not the point!
                        they are exotic and sureal in impression- more feminine than masculine and more fantasy than artistic. JR

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                        • #27

                          Long fins are not Nishikigoi and when exhibited with are confusing and misleading for the public IMHO. Better, I think for the hobby if those that appreciated them had "The Long Fin Club of ............"

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                          • #28

                            I'll agree again with that point of view-- not because I hate the look of longfins! But because they are terrible Nishikigoi!
                            Yet they hold the potential to become an entirely different image and collectable. I'd go so far as to say, I'd even tweak a koi pond in certain ways to improve their growth/shape and protect their finnage. They certainly can't swim like nishikigoi so that is the place to start in designing a system for a 'dragon carp' collection. It could actually be a fun project-- to build the perfect dragon carp environment. Filters similar but maybe with turn over rate changing, the design should be tweaked as well. JR

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                            • #29

                              to keep the seperate longfin from reg fin seperate the judging standard needs to change also to be really different.

                              i believe(correct me if wrong) they are being judged on nice round end edges of pec fins.now i do not like the long stranded pec fins but like the "bird wing or dragon wing" and so what if jagged and not perfect smooth around the outside.
                              Paul Korf

                              member of:
                              Midwest Pond and Koi Society
                              Louisville Koi club
                              IKONA

                              Comment

                              • #30

                                I think the mistake that was made in creating a 'longfin koi' standard by US judging groups is that long fin carp should look like nishikigoi only with the goldfish standard for fin carriage applied!
                                Longfin koi are no closer to goldfish than they are nishikigoi. So that was just a plain 'misfire' by well intentioned people.

                                Longfin are a unique species/subspecies that are physically differnet but also artistically different than goldfish OR nishikigoi.

                                From this debate, I hope that a new view of longfin carp will emerge-- one that sees them as differnet and disticnct from the their cousins the goldfish and the nishikigoi. JR

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