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Inheritance of long fins in koi

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  • Inheritance of long fins in koi

    Recently we performed a study on inheritance of long fins in koi. The article, which contains the results of this study, can be seen through the following link:

    http://www.ksuaquaculture.org/PDFs/B...73%2049-52.pdf


    Hope this article will be interesting for you.
  • #2

    I think it would be an interesting notion of identifying the dominate LfLf trait in the blood and singling it out in an Lflf*Lflf spawn. Long term comparison on growth, development, etc on the LfLf vs the Lflf would be interesting. If the cost were lower and the process were simpler, I think one could start creating parent stock for future breeding. I am doubtful the money is there for it though without more popularity world wide. One would wonder what the take on it would be in Japan if one could create 100% long fin from a pairing. Would market increase for them? Would a side catagory in show be an option down the road with an increase in popularity or would history continue to dominate decisions?

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    • #3

      All species of fish throw off hypertrophy--long fins in some individuals. In the fish family, barbs abd danio are not too distant from carp for instance.
      zebra danios, all danios actually, ruby red barbs, golden barbs etc all have longfin versions at most aquarium stores. It's a natural sport of the normal finnage and they tend to die out in the wild.
      Not surprisng that longfins show up in koi spawns and it does NOT mean that the trait goes back to some secret experiment by the Japanese with Indonesian longfins. Although in those cases of attempts at hybrid vigor that the trait won't be picked up as a lineage trait. JR

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      • #4

        Looking at this from perhaps a slightly "higher altitude," I have long felt that there is a real dearth of valid research in the field of Koi. I am greatly encouraged to see this valid, peers-reviewed, respected journal publication of a Koi-based research project.

        *Thumbs up!*

        Comment

        • #5

          Boris is a nice guy and very determined to make a contribution in koi genetics. If you recall he wanted to do a presentation at the last AKCA seminar. A study of the G Mendel's classic dominate/recessive traits on Kokahu pattern to map the % of white and red as a gene code. A little out there but fun to read.
          The references in this one are a bit weak. TFH and Tetra? And a manual published by a hobbyist in 1981? And one reference from Rinko! I know the article its a good'n. I do like the reference to the danio though as it is very well studied.
          the most that can be drawn from this study is the dominate recessive rating of hypertrophy. JR

          Comment

          • #6

            Originally posted by jimfish98 View Post
            I think it would be an interesting notion of identifying the dominate LfLf trait in the blood and singling it out in an Lflf*Lflf spawn. Long term comparison on growth, development, etc on the LfLf vs the Lflf would be interesting. If the cost were lower and the process were simpler, I think one could start creating parent stock for future breeding. I am doubtful the money is there for it though without more popularity world wide. One would wonder what the take on it would be in Japan if one could create 100% long fin from a pairing. Would market increase for them? Would a side catagory in show be an option down the road with an increase in popularity or would history continue to dominate decisions?
            But longfins don't really have any value? JR

            Comment

            • #7

              Those results fall pretty much in line with what I would have anticipated.

              The flaw in "scientific method" application here is the absence of adequate "control groups" and "diversity groups" with available parent sets.

              If I was going to design a follow-on study it would be structured in this manner.

              All insemination performed via AI utilizing 4 parents.

              LF Male Kohaku X LF Female Kohaku

              SF Male Kohaku X SF Female Kohaku

              Then, utilizing the same parents;

              LF Male Kohaku X SF Female Kohaku

              SF Male Kohaku X LF Female Kohaku

              I think that would yield a similar result, but the parent utilization would allow you to actually point to solid evidence with fewer "buts" or "ifs" hanging around in the weeds.
              Larry Iles
              Oklahoma

              Comment

              • #8

                well here is where can't use normal genetic punnett sqaure to determine results-- koi spawns are as much a reflection of their recessive gene pool as they are their parents genetics.
                If we used the same logic on say kohaku then a breeding of kohaku would produce 25% all red, 25% all white and 50% red and white like the parent. That is if you knew nothing about kohaku !
                Or another theory of mendelian proportions would be that kohaku X kohalku results in well ---- all kohaku!

                Nope, nishikigoi is the study of recessive genes- double recessives, weak dominates and partial dominates.
                The tail of course is simple genetics and pretty easy to break down. But what the tail is on is not so easy-- in fact breeding for that trait is a sure why to reduce quality. Only if the trait of the tail is present in both adults would the breeding of Nishikigoi begin . otherwise a good representative koi will be a fluke of having all traits on one body ( like a giant one-armed bandit and not a punnett square).
                Besides, if breeding sanke is a way to loose money then breeding long fins is a quicker way to loose money! As longfins have no real value the price ceiling is very much set. Not unlike feeder fish. JR

                Comment

                • #9

                  I am enjoying this interest in the genetics of as it adds a dimension to the study and appreciation of koi. sometimes it joins the dots and sometimes it raises more questions.

                  For those wanting more, there are plenty of bred crumbs to follow, It is just a shame some breeders don't post very often.

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by PapaBear View Post
                    Those results fall pretty much in line with what I would have anticipated.

                    The flaw in "scientific method" application here is the absence of adequate "control groups" and "diversity groups" with available parent sets.

                    If I was going to design a follow-on study it would be structured in this manner.

                    All insemination performed via AI utilizing 4 parents.

                    LF Male Kohaku X LF Female Kohaku

                    SF Male Kohaku X SF Female Kohaku

                    Then, utilizing the same parents;

                    LF Male Kohaku X SF Female Kohaku

                    SF Male Kohaku X LF Female Kohaku

                    I think that would yield a similar result, but the parent utilization would allow you to actually point to solid evidence with fewer "buts" or "ifs" hanging around in the weeds.
                    Scientific method gives possibility to suggest model of inheritance based on results of several crosses and predict outcome of all possible crosses.


                    I would like to highlight findings of this research in simple words. We found that in two crosses, long fin x long fin and long fin x short fin, segregations did not differ significantly from classical Mendelian ratios 3:1 and 1:1, respectively. This shows that appearance of long fins in koi is controlled by dominant allele of one gene.


                    Based on this finding possible phenotypes (possession of long fins) and genotypes (genetic formulas) can be the following:


                    Short fin (normal) fish can be only lflf (homozygous for recessive allele);


                    Long fin fish can be either LfLf (homozygous for dominant allele) or heterozygous Lflf.


                    Here are theoretical results of possible crosses based of this model:


                    - Crossing of two short fin fish lflf give always short fin fish lflf (unless another independent mutation of this gene occurs)


                    - Crossing of two long fin fish can give different segregations depending on fish genotypes:

                    a) 100% (1:0) of long fin in crosses LfLf x LfLf or LfLf x Lflf

                    b) 3 : 1 (long fin : short fin) in cross Lflf x Lflf (what we obtained in study)


                    - Crossing of long fin fish with short fin fish can also result in two possible segregations depending on fish genotypes:

                    a) 100% (1:0) of long fin fish in cross LfLf x lflf

                    b) 1:1 (long fin : short fin) in cross Lflf x lflf (what we obtained in study)

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Originally posted by JasPR View Post
                      Boris is a nice guy and very determined to make a contribution in koi genetics. If you recall he wanted to do a presentation at the last AKCA seminar. A study of the G Mendel's classic dominate/recessive traits on Kokahu pattern to map the % of white and red as a gene code. A little out there but fun to read.
                      The references in this one are a bit weak. TFH and Tetra? And a manual published by a hobbyist in 1981? And one reference from Rinko! I know the article its a good'n. I do like the reference to the danio though as it is very well studied.
                      the most that can be drawn from this study is the dominate recessive rating of hypertrophy. JR
                      I think hobbyist will also get a sense of what a scientific study is suppose to look like and some will find the details of breeding (like injecting with carp pituitary extract) informative.
                      I found the information about the fertilized eggs being treated with an 8:1 water-cow milk mixture interesting.

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Me too! JR

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Originally posted by JasPR View Post
                          Besides, if breeding sanke is a way to loose money then breeding long fins is a quicker way to loose money! As longfins have no real value the price ceiling is very much set. Not unlike feeder fish. JR
                          ?? True that the price ceiling is set... and fairly low, but longfins are produced because they can be sold to the general market more readily than 'orange and white goldfish'. Of course, there is no need for research for that market. [Longfin barbs, white clouds, etc. are really plain awful, but they sell.)

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            There is something about this that is nagging at me. The inheritance appears to me to be modified by crossing rather than true to form.

                            Observing these offspring they appear to be "large" finned, but not the full blown "Indonesian LFLF" type (with flowing gossamer wings).

                            That bears out my own experiences with crossing Indonesian type LF with Standard finned Koi. None of the offspring developed the full "flowing" membrane that extends well beyond the tips of the rays and trail behind the main body of the finnage. In our case, the male Oyagoi was a very "full finned" Indonesian type, with a tail fin that was nearly as long as his frame and the dorsal and pec fins matched that trait completely.

                            Amomg the offspring from his crosses some carried oversized "fans" on the tail, dorsal, and pec fins, but none demonstrated the free flowing membrane extension. An "elongated" fan with a pointed tip was most common, with the degree of finnage inheritance displayed also being reflected in the body conformation being more "bowling pin", which is the common Indonesian type.

                            I say all of this to illustrate the "inheritance by degrees" rather than "true to form" in reproducing the original. The offspring are "modified" by both parents which does not produce the same result as true Dominance.
                            Larry Iles
                            Oklahoma

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Hi Larry, there is no question that 'longfins' come in several different types or looks. Personally I like the 'dragon' look which is a long flowing and ragged look. I like it because it also goes nicely with the other effects of hypertrophy which are-- elongated barbels.
                              Unfortunately ( and back in the 1980s I was one of them) we wished Indonesian longfins looked more like koi as far as varieties were concerned-- so the kohaku of today in a hypertrophic specimen has reduced whisker size as well as very goldfish like flowing fins. I remember when it hit me like a ton of bricks that longfins don't look as good when they are 'good specimen' kohaku! It seems that the kawari types and solids are the most impressive individuals as the color goes better with the ' look of the dragon' ( long whiskers and ragged finnage) . The proof I always enter ( and I know you have heard this before) is that the black nishikigoi is a very boring and easily over looked koi that isn't even entered in koi shows. But an all black 'longfin' in the 'dragon' version, is an awesome sight! this leads even the dullest mind to begin to realize that the finnage leaves us with an entirely different impression of what a longfin and a nishikigoi should be like.

                              I can tell you that I have seen on more than one ocassion at a koi show, individuals with 'slightly' elongated fins ( more than just normal male extended fins) that are either partly hypertrophic. So the conclusion that dominance is clear is not quite right or we would not see these blended or partial looks.
                              the key by the way is to determine if the fins are just large or elongated. That is determined by the ray structure of the fin. JR

                              Comment

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