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A way to check for KHV?!?!

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  • A way to check for KHV?!?!

    In the aftermath of my huge fish losses, I am wondering what to do with my 3 survivors. I have one 4 inch goshiki and 2 shubunkins that were born in my pond 4 years ago. I have no intention of euthinizing them. They are currently in a 500gal kiddie pool and look fine. Since a gill swab is pretty unreliable, I had another idea. I would take a cheap, but healthy, control koi and place him in with them. If he is still alive and well in a month...then it probably wasn't KHV. My fish had many secondary infections during everything...but I was never sure if KHV started the whole problem. I saw green fungus on open sores and a lot of flashing. These 3 fish have been treated with anti-fluke..and have malachite green with formalin in their current tank. None of them are flashing or anything. Let me know what you think of my idea for using a control fish...If they are not KHV carriers, I would like to return them to my pond eventually. Thanks again for the help!!
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    If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.
  • #2

    If I highly suspected KHV I would put them down and disinfect the whole system with chlorox. You do know that survivors are known to pass it on at a later date - correct? I don't think the shubs would catch it any way. This virus is temperature sensitive and if your water is warm enough the disease wouldn't break. Last year some people lost a lot of fish but kept the survivors. The survivors looked healthy so they put new fish in with them later last fall and the new ones didn't get sick. When the water warmed this year they started dying again.

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    • #3

      Listen to Ruth. You should arrange to send that surviving koi to Univ. Georgia - or wherever they do the KHV PCR diagnosis. The goldfish are not supposed to catch it, but I would get rid of them anyway. They haven't been studied enough to insure that they cannot carry the virus. Keeping those fish around is just asking for trouble. Read some of the various board archives and you will find that people who keep KHV survivors are not highly regarded by other hobbyists.
      -stevehopkin

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      • #4

        A couple of thigs to dwell on.

        If you decide to keep the koi and the goldfish/shubumkins and you restock your pool with more koi you will be happy again but in the back of your mind allways woundering "will it won't it raise it's head?" If you uthinase the fish at this stage and disinfect you will have 99% piece of mind the 1% will be have I cleaned the whole pool? I wish you all the best what ever you choose.

        Jules
        Jules

        www.jewelspondsandgardens.co.uk

        Comment

        • #5

          Originally posted by Jules
          If you decide to keep the koi and the goldfish/shubumkins and you restock your pool with more koi you will be happy again but in the back of your mind allways woundering "will it won't it raise it's head?"
          Jules
          It is the same with the suggestion here that if you remove all the koi from the pond the virus will die after 24 hours without a host to support it.
          I think I too would never sleep soundly after that.
          Jaco Vorster
          South Africa

          Comment

          • #6

            Bekko idea of making a PCR test is on my opiniun the best solution. Maybe you don't need to send them on Georgia university. Just phone them to ask what they need to do the test, maybe you can just send them what they need (PCR test can be made with blood, escrement and some time just with a hear coton stick that you pass in the mouth). If it is not too complicate you might be abble to do it yourself. Usualy they send the material you need to do the test.

            The other solution would be to inject the suspected fish with dexamethasone (once a day for three day) to take the imunity down, so the virus could come out and the fish will show if he is carrying the KHV. To do that you must be sure that no other sickness are not there and that your water conditions are perfect.
            If is carrying KHV he will probably die. So this way of doing is not so elegant.

            Good luck and let us know what Georgia unisversity propose you.

            Marco

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            • #7

              Here is a thought.

              The advice after KHV is to empty pond and clean thoroughly with a bacterial disinfectant.

              But,

              What about your filter media?? - keep or replace??

              All the pump, UV, heater and pipework internals - flush???

              Thoughts,
              Greg.

              "The target is within"

              Comment

              • #8

                Greg: Everything needs to be sterilized and start anew. In laboratory conditions, the KHV virus has not been able to survive without a host for more than 24 hours. But there are insufficient studies to know what the virus can do in a pond environment.

                Brutuscz: It was not clear to me why KHV was suspected as the source of your problem. It may have been, but the symptoms described along the way were consistent with other possibilities. I would want to trace back to the source of the fish added to your pond to determine whether anyone in the chain had health issues that sound like KHV. If so, their fish are potential carriers and need to be tested, etc. You have to decide how important those 3 fish are to you. With any rational basis to believe it was KHV, I would euthanize them as humanely as possible, sterilize the entire pond system (and all equipment ever used in or around the pond) with chlorine bleach for several days to be sure nothing could survive any where in it, and then commence the long process of breaking in a new pond. On the other hand, if KHV got mentioned just because nobody was in a position to scrape/scope/diagnose accurately, and nobody in the chain of ponds leading to yours have had KHV symptoms, then let's not panic. With no real reason to think it was KHV, but only a lingering question in the back of the mind simply because there was no ability to diagnose properly, then I think your idea of adding a test koi to the holding tank (but for an extended period of time ) is a good approach to give you peace of mind. Long before KHV, a lot of ponds were wiped out by parasite problems not properly diagnosed. Nowadays, KHV fear can get out of control. A balanced approach based on facts is needed.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Originally posted by MikeM
                  Greg: Everything needs to be sterilized and start anew. In laboratory conditions, the KHV virus has not been able to survive without a host for more than 24 hours. But there are insufficient studies to know what the virus can do in a pond environment.

                  Brutuscz: It was not clear to me why KHV was suspected as the source of your problem. It may have been, but the symptoms described along the way were consistent with other possibilities. I would want to trace back to the source of the fish added to your pond to determine whether anyone in the chain had health issues that sound like KHV. If so, their fish are potential carriers and need to be tested, etc. You have to decide how important those 3 fish are to you. With any rational basis to believe it was KHV, I would euthanize them as humanely as possible, sterilize the entire pond system (and all equipment ever used in or around the pond) with chlorine bleach for several days to be sure nothing could survive any where in it, and then commence the long process of breaking in a new pond. On the other hand, if KHV got mentioned just because nobody was in a position to scrape/scope/diagnose accurately, and nobody in the chain of ponds leading to yours have had KHV symptoms, then let's not panic. With no real reason to think it was KHV, but only a lingering question in the back of the mind simply because there was no ability to diagnose properly, then I think your idea of adding a test koi to the holding tank (but for an extended period of time ) is a good approach to give you peace of mind. Long before KHV, a lot of ponds were wiped out by parasite problems not properly diagnosed. Nowadays, KHV fear can get out of control. A balanced approach based on facts is needed.
                  Hi Mike..I have already sterilized the pond with bleach, as instructed. I had 2 fish in quarantine that I have added..so far, so good. My question is how long should I place the control fish in with them before I should feel safe that it is not khv? I know I had other issues in my pond, but I bought an israeli koi 2 weeks before this started...so I am suspicious of khv. I wont euthinize or send these fish anywhere. I bred them, so they are staying at my home. If I cant return them to my pond, then I will set up a small indoor pond or fishtank to keep them in. The way I feel about it is they didn't ask me to be my pets, I asked them to be my pets. That makes it my resposibility to care for them even when they are sick. So, they will remain in my care regardless...it is just a question of where. Thanks again guys!!
                  sigpic

                  If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

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                  • #10

                    Originally posted by Brutuscz
                    Hi Mike..I have already sterilized the pond with bleach, as instructed. I had 2 fish in quarantine that I have added..so far, so good. My question is how long should I place the control fish in with them before I should feel safe that it is not khv? I know I had other issues in my pond, but I bought an israeli koi 2 weeks before this started...so I am suspicious of khv. I wont euthinize or send these fish anywhere. I bred them, so they are staying at my home. If I cant return them to my pond, then I will set up a small indoor pond or fishtank to keep them in. The way I feel about it is they didn't ask me to be my pets, I asked them to be my pets. That makes it my resposibility to care for them even when they are sick. So, they will remain in my care regardless...it is just a question of where. Thanks again guys!!
                    M8, with all due respect, you dont seem to have learned from this. You posted that you had introduced a fish without quarentine and were told how irresponsible this was. You claimed over and again that you new the supplier very well and that it had been quarentined for a long period. Once the ineviitable happened, as you had been warned, you insisted it was an air problem and only over several days did you slowly release bits of information. Now you tell us that you intriduced an Israeli Koi 2 weeks before it happened, again information you failed to tell us before when we were trying to help you.

                    Once again you have asked for help and are ignoring it. Even if it isn't KHV there are a hundred and one other things that could still be in your pond, your fish, your filters etc, you are heading for another costly, cruel disaster if you dont head peoples advice here.

                    Kill the fish, burn them, dissinfect EVERYTHING until you cant dissinfect any more, them dissinfect again, twice. Then start afresh with a few small fish from a different supplier completely to the ones you've used before. This is the only way you can be sure you get it all and it wont happen again.

                    This may sound harsh but I tell it like I see it.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      The israelis have the experience on dealing with KHV, and they are not that sure about how to de-infect the system. In 1 report, they went all the way to take out the whole system, rebuilt a new pond and everything, put in KHV-free kois, only to have it shown up again. Maybe KHV virus got retroduced into the new system via some mean, but no one know. So, bleaching the system may not make it KHV free. Or maybe the system is KHV free after bleaching, but something carrying the virus is waiting out there near your system to re-infect your pond.

                      at this point, I am not sure if you really got KHV. from all the reports, there seem to be a consistent way KHV shows up:

                      1. temp around mid-70 F
                      2. infected koi lost all slime
                      3. massive infection of every kind
                      4. koi died within a few days after infection.

                      I followed your threads, looked to me your kois has gill infection, maybe fluke, and secondary bacteria gill infection. from 1 of the photos you posted, that gill infection would have take sometime to develop, and that doesn't seems to fit #4.

                      I think the best thing to do is send the 'survivors' out the UoG for testing before we scared ourselves to death.

                      stan

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by [email protected]
                        M8, with all due respect, you dont seem to have learned from this. You posted that you had introduced a fish without quarentine and were told how irresponsible this was. You claimed over and again that you new the supplier very well and that it had been quarentined for a long period. Once the ineviitable happened, as you had been warned, you insisted it was an air problem and only over several days did you slowly release bits of information. Now you tell us that you intriduced an Israeli Koi 2 weeks before it happened, again information you failed to tell us before when we were trying to help you.

                        I did introduce fish without quarantine and have learned from this. I did mention that one of the fish was from israel. I also mentioned that the fish was quarantined by the seller for 30 days. Unfortunately..it was in a greenhouse..so the water was warm and the khv wouldn't have shown at that temperature...something I didn't consider at the time. I wont allow this to happen again.

                        Once again you have asked for help and are ignoring it. Even if it isn't KHV there are a hundred and one other things that could still be in your pond, your fish, your filters etc, you are heading for another costly, cruel disaster if you dont head peoples advice here.

                        I have followed the advice given by a koi health advisor and sterilized my pond with bleach at the recommended dosage.

                        Kill the fish, burn them, dissinfect EVERYTHING until you cant dissinfect any more, them dissinfect again, twice. Then start afresh with a few small fish from a different supplier completely to the ones you've used before. This is the only way you can be sure you get it all and it wont happen again.

                        I have started again this way..but I will not destroy these fish...I will keep them indoors if I can't return them to the pond. Separate everything..nets, food, etc.

                        This may sound harsh but I tell it like I see it.
                        I definitely appreciate it. What everyone doesn't understand was the speed at which this happened. By the time the first fish died...they were all gone in a week!! I felt that by the time a test result came back, it would all be over. Well, I am going to listen, I will not let those fish enter my system again. They will enjoy a life of indoor living.
                        sigpic

                        If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Originally posted by Brutuscz
                          I definitely appreciate it. What everyone doesn't understand was the speed at which this happened. By the time the first fish died...they were all gone in a week!! I felt that by the time a test result came back, it would all be over. Well, I am going to listen, I will not let those fish enter my system again. They will enjoy a life of indoor living.
                          Sorry dude I probably over reacted a tad there, my intentions are right enough though.

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                          • #14

                            You need to be aware that KHV is human transferable for a period of time. (24hrs??????)

                            You will not be able to feed one then the other without the possability of transfer.

                            Clothes, hands, food, Equipment, ANYTHING!!!!!!

                            You will need to set up some sort of Bio security alcohol hand wash, change your clothes and use differant foods, nets etc, etc. EVERY TIME you go from one to the other.

                            People / friends who may come into contact with other Koi within this period of time need to use the same security when leaving your house. Even if they have not been to your indoor set-up. As you may have walked in there or worn the same shoes.

                            ( Imagine - you clean your indoor tank spill some water walk in it, forget to change your shoes or clean your hands with bio wash, then wipe your hand on your top, then go and meet a mate shake hands, then he goes and feeds his koi) - the mind boggles with the endless possible scenario's.

                            You really need to think long and hard about the HOBBY not these Koi. It has to be a concious descision.

                            Get these fish tested at all costs - unfortunatly no room for sentiment. Imagine how you would feel if a friend lost his collection to a slip up.

                            Hope all goes well,
                            Greg.

                            "The target is within"

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              I understand this type of thing can happen, but it is very unlikely. I also happen to be an anti-bacterial soap hand washing psycho...so its even less likely. I am a medical professional, so I fully understand universal precautions (So why didn't I quarantine? Stupid I guess!!). But, since I am unsure it ever was KHV...if I threw in 1 or 2, 4 inch test koi..and in some undetermined amount of time (4-6 weeks or longer)..and they have zero symptoms, would you then assume it probably wasn't KHV?? I have treated these fish for parasites and bacterial infections and they have stopped flashing. Even though I have no intention of adding them..now that I am fully paranoid, at what time period would you say it was probably something else? If my water is under 80deg, there is no reason these test fish wouldn't get khv if they were exposed? So for educational purposes..what do you think?
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                              If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

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