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  • #16

    Hi Dick,

    Point taken. I know there are many levels in this hobby and there are personal likes and dislikes. I also note that in the forum I log on to, every koi posted has only good reviews eventhough some were otherwise. I thought for all to learn we should look at kois from all angles to get a balanced view and let the readers make their own judgement. That was why I have said it was only my personal assessment of this koi.

    Like I have said if I had insulted anyone please accept my sincere apologies. I now know when to shut up.

    Let me end by telling you another horror story. This breeder just bought a prized 80cm Kindai Showa male and placed him immediately into his mudpond. The very next day the middle half of the showa's body was gone.

    Cheers, dtbh


    • #17

      I believe honest opinion will benefit eveyone because there are many new hobbyists here including myself.



      • #18

        Guys, your comments are greatly aprreciated

        Agree with some of you that beni on this looked good as compared to beni on other sakai showa since it is often their main weakness. Kohaku pattern is matter of preference and it greatly depend on the placement of sumi as you rightly point out. Hence understood the importance of pH in 7.4 - 7.6. Luckily my pond pH in hovering around 7 - 8 at this moment so still have chance to maintain the beni and enhanching sumi.

        This fish will definetly looked better than present wt the appearance of sumi. But how good will it be, may be average or champion material ? Like Dick said, 8 is the limit to see how it finished patience patience

        Certainly i dont mind if it will limit its size to 28inch but i m a bit worry wt the tail tube and its growth rate. To clarify Mike's question is not the angle of the shot but in presence it looked bulging in front and thin near tail (typical shiro utsuri body i guess). Personally i find fish with this kind of feature wont have amazing growth rate because it tend to grow upward and sideways(broad shoulder and back) but lengthwise development is average. Not too discredit anyone, i attached a picture of maruyama kohak wt the feature i lastly talked about. fyi, growth rate is 5 cm in 2 months (average i guess)? Majority of tosai (sakai) in the pond get a 4 - 5 cm growth rate per month.
        Attached Files


        • #19

          Originally posted by Maurice
          Can I be honest?

          Yes please, i need all the reasons not to buy this showa


          • #20

            Originally posted by Bancherd
            I am worried about the sumi on the face. I have a feeling it would not come up much more than we we see currently.
            If you dont mind, pls explain what make you think that sumi wont come up more than we see currently ??


            • #21

              Originally posted by dtbh
              Personally I wouldn't buy this showa. Don't like the body (small for a nissai, thin tail peduncle), the beni tinge and quality (commonly seen in Sakai's showa), nor the pattern. This is only my opinion and I hope I did not insult anyone.

              On the subject of Sakai's showa, has anyone seen a really good showa from them? I must say I have yet to be impressed by them. But their kohaku and, lately sanke, are really yummy.
              Hi doc, i really dont mind you saying negative points abt this showa coz it is valuable info for me. I have one sakai showa 50cm nisai in my pond currently and so far it impressed me but again i only have it not too long ago to made credible judgement. But the sakai kohak and sanke, totally agree with you ! They are really yummy (not pertaining in our taste of course ... LOL)


              • #22


                A great post. It is thoughtful of you (and so rare) from a high-end koi keepers to think about what a new hobbyist has to go through.

                Incidently, today at the NWK&GC show I spoke with Dan Olson and Greg from the Spokane club and told them that the feedback I usually get from customers I send to join a koi club is that after the first meeting they did not think they belonged: everything discussed went way past over their head.

                They agreed to have received such comments before from cub members. So I offered to make a talk at their February meeting geared towards new hobbyists (and the high-end ones that want to help them out).


                • #23

                  Originally posted by dick benbow
                  it surprised me that no one followed up on my comment about the value of PH regarding this koi. had that question been forwarded you probably would had heard my concern about the depth of the beni. With High PH this koi would have gone Bright red immediately and then you would have seen a disappearance of the hi plate.
                  First off, thanks for your lenghty comments Dick.

                  Sorry i missed the point you raised on the depth of beni. Whats behind the reason of your concern regarding the depth of beni ?

                  I have witnessed other showa in a local dealer pond which suffered the intensfying of beni and then shrinking of hi plate into individual hi scale arrangement. So far i have not seen one which lost its hi plate altogether. Question: will this shrinking hi reverse to normal ?

                  Also another point that was not captured by the photo is the ginrin scale on the shiroji part (like water drop inside the scale) on the side of the body and also on some on the hiban.


                  • #24

                    Paulino: The body type you are describing is not good. I'll hope this Showa does not have too much of it.

                    Dick's observations on the Hi are very interesting. The male Showa I had that possessed what seems to be this sort of Hi, did very well for me in color development. That was about 3 or so years ago. At that time my tap water was consistently at a pH of 7.4-7.6 (after de-gassing... was neutral out of the tap) and total hardness was moderate. Over the past 18 months my water has dramatically changed as a result of a program of well replacement by the water utility. The pH is now in the 8.0 range and the water is definitely hard. I'm thinking that it is fortunate I had a chance to raise the fellow back then. Might never have a chance to see the possibilities today.


                    • #25

                      this has been a great post and I'm glad lots of things got covered. One of the things most difficult is to condense over 25 years of hands on learning into a written form. I try but it isn't always easy. If we had this showa and another side by side you could see and learn most easily. Even side by side pics don't always show the small but important nuiances.

                      Arthur, glad your making your knowledge available to the clubs you come into contact with.

                      recently I was asked to write an article for a club's news letter on selection of tosai asagi. That was difficult! So much of the selection process is based on knowledge of the parents and bloodlines.
                      Dick Benbow


                      • #26

                        OK, my feelings.

                        I wouldn't give this showa a second glance, maybe I'm wrong for the sake of the eventual purchaser!

                        The kohaku pattern is not good enough, if I take away the sumi, I see a boring pattern.

                        The sumi type, is in my view poor and can not see it coming up well.

                        If the sumi were to come up it would spoil the only pattern the koi has, being very rear heavy.

                        I do not see any sumi coming on the shoulder area, if it did it would help this showa no end.

                        Not one for me.
                        This is my opinion and hope it does not offend, it is based on my own experience of watching the many types and styles of showa i have bought and being told by a very experienced Japanese hobbyist what will happen with various showa, only for him to be proved right!
                        For sumi to work, first you have to pick the correct type of sumi, this is not the type from my experience.
                        I'm happy to be proved wrong, as koi is one big learning experience!


                        • #27

                          Yep Mike, this type of body shape certainly raised a concern for this fish. Especially knowing it is a nisai and still 40cm

                          Dick, if you dont mind pls share your insights on this type of beni ..

                          Good to hear from you Maurice, agreeable that it is tricky to judge sumi at this point of time. Perphap like you said, characteristic of bloodline is a big influence in determining the quallity of sumi. Another point is no indication of shoulder sumi at all so it enhances the gamble.

                          I guess I have to hold my horses then ... or looks for an older one that suit my budgets. Thanks again everyone.


                          • #28

                            Hi Maurice,

                            Thanks finally for your frank assessment of this fish. This will now allow both experienced and novice hobbyists a balanced view on her future.

                            I gave the previous few postings some serious thoughts regarding how we must cater for the novices. I must agree this is very, very important to create and maintain interest, and ease them thro' the learning curve. But how and when do we draw the line? Wouldn't it be better to let them see/learn the thinking process of an experienced hobbyist and the way he/she assesses a fish? Anyway that was how I learnt thro' the years. I must say it has saved me a lot of time, avoid a lot of disappointments and more importantly saved me a lot money. I do not expect novices to buy expensive kois too early in their learning experience. To me, their thinking process even in assessing a cheap koi has to be cultivated early. In short, think like a senior (hobbyist) but buy like a junior and one will enjoy this hobby for a long, long time.

                            Coming back to this koi and after the various comments one can expect the following :

                            1. Not going to be a big koi
                            2. Tail peduncle will remain thin relative to the body
                            3. Pattern will not improve very much, and if anything may become less pleasing with tail-heavy sumi.
                            4. Hi may improve a bit under good water condition (sumi to a certain extent) but still don't expect it to be very good

                            With this expectations one can then make an informed decision to see if it meets the criteria of your purchase.

                            Good luck, dtbh


                            • #29

                              The way I see it if someone asks for an opinion on a fish you give them your HONEST opinion, regardless of what 'level' you decide they are at within the hobby.

                              Everyone was spouting rubbish about how wonderful this fish was until I posted my honest view and that has triggered others to follow suit (Maurice excepted as he had already asked if he could be honest implying his dislike). Now we have backtracking and suggestions that people were being generous because they dont want to hurt any feelings or because their answer was tailored to the knowledge level of the poster????? (or did I misunderstand those implications?)

                              Honesty is a virtue folks, its not fair to go gently on a poor fish and then the poster buys it based on false comments.


                              • #30

                                Who would want to be new around such a cynical grumpy old poop head? I am with Dick on this.

                                Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the eye evolves with time, experience and gentle coaching.

                                I think the fish stinks too.


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