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Bakki Showers: Where's The Dirt?

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  • Bakki Showers: Where's The Dirt?

    There has been a lot of activity on the boards lately about Bakki Showers, with the big question being, as always, where does the waste go?

    My BS has been operating since the first week of May. In that period of nearly 3 months, all I've done is remove the few tree leaves that somehow get blown under the cover into the top media tray. I also remove leaves (& frogs) that get caught in the leaf basket of the pump leading to it. The water first goes through a skimmer with a fairly open mat. A separate skimmer feeds a bead filter. The bead filter collects plenty of glarf over the course of a week. What about the Bakki? Both get approximately 5,000 gallons of water per hour.

    The water fed to the Bakki returns through two underground 4" pipes. As shown in the thread on the pond's construction, the returns are plumbed into the base of the bottom tray and stand a little over an inch above the base of the tray. The bottom try is filled with Bacteria House media. Given the amount of glarf captured in the bead filter, it seems logical to me that there would be a layer of sediment in the bottom tray of the Bakki.

    Today I checked out the bottom tray. There was sediment... a fine dusting of sediment. There was no thick layer of sediment. It seems to me there should have been more.

    The 3 pictures show the undisturbed media in the top tray, the bottom tray with some media removed (after turning off the pump and letting the water stop draining from above), and a closer shot of the same (sorry for the blur).
    Attached Files
  • #2

    Now, these photos show that sediment does gather, but it is so little that the metal bottom of the tray can be seen. Among the sediment is a sandy residue of grit from the BH media. I'd guess about half the volume of the sediment is a dusting of that grit.

    I do not know if the same results would apply to a Bakki supplied from a bottom drain. Conceivably, the detritus going through it is very light weight (since picked up by the skimmer), and as a result does not settle easily, but stays in suspension to be returned to the pond. I would note, however, that each week I stir up more sediment that has settled on the bottom of the skimmer than is on the bottom of the bottom tray of the Bakki. What I stir up from the bottom of the skimmer flows to the Bakki. That is, sediment that is heavy enough to avoid being sucked into the pump moving 5,000 gallons per hour is not building up in the bottom tray of the Bakki where the presence of BH media prevents direct flow to the outlet pipes.

    I do not believe in Far Infra-red Rays etc. being a factor. I expect it has to do with the type of microbes housed in the media. However, my purpose here is just to report what I found.

    Comment

    • #3

      MikeM2 thanks for bringing this up.

      I have voiced my concern in another forum last year as to what happens to the solids in such a set-up when there is no sedimentation chamber with supply direct to the BS/BH at a high turnover rate. I would presume the solids is "pulverised" into solution which led me to another fear of the possibilty of this causing hikkui in the long term. This has become a real fear and I would be more than glad, and for the sake of all of us who are contemplating trying this, if those who are already using this set-up would be so kind as to give us your experience esp with reference to hikkui.

      Let me tell you why it has become a real concern. One of our senior koi hobbyist with a 100ton pond who had converted his TTs to this BS/BH setup using 1 ton of the BH. Despite all this claim of better and crystal clear water (I am still appalled by people claiming that crstal clear water means good water), and good water parameters as tested with meters this friend of mine has informed me that some of his priced kois are developing hikkui. I hope this is just coincidence and your sharing of your experience will be much appreciated.

      Thanks, dtbh

      Comment

      • #4

        may I ask what hikkui is?

        Comment

        • #5

          hi mike

          can i recommend a little experiment, not here to start any arguments had my hands full at koiphen.

          On your very last tray where the 2 4 inch pipe are plumbed in try, raising the media by putting like a plastic grid that has large square holes below the media raise it around 2 inch with your 5000 gallon flow. The purpose of this is to lift all media of the floor so that none is submerged.

          After that see whether this any sediment left besides the white grit or any sediment on the pond floor or drains. When you have tried it for a few weeks i will tell you why i recommended it.

          hope it helps


          tewa
          There is no such thing as a zero maintenance pond but the closer you get the more time to enjoy your koi. Soft low TDS water is the perfect pond water.
          http://www.tewakoi.com

          Comment

          • #6

            Know this isn't my own thought but I heard a fella speak at the BKKS and he seemed like a bright chap...he even had a fish at the show that won GC...can't remember his name though...but this stuck...

            "if you have enough wood for a HUGE bonfire on Guy Fawkes day (Blimey whots dat?), what do you have left the day after? Very little."

            Just something to consider.

            Comment

            • #7

              way to go Twea! You've put your finger right on the problem. the dietrius or grit
              will go somewhere else. But the cure of gathering within the filter itself should be remidied. That's how my unit is designed. You do want a settling system so eventually you can catch and discard.

              I know Arthur who posts and advertises here on KB talked with Kerin Koi at the Portland show. If i understood the conversation correctly my next BH purchase may very well be coming out of oregon. I have another 3 decker built to my specs that i need to get BH for. I figure while others wait to get the info
              that others are learning, I'll continue to get what i need thru personal experience. Too bad BH doesn't produce an infra-blue that could highlight the blue in my asagi's! I have a Bakki shower on the babies pond and I have seen them grow and inch or more during the last month!
              Dick Benbow

              Comment

              • #8

                Hi Dick

                I had that same problem when i just placed media in the bottom tray what happen was the water that return to the pond only exits the tray one side thus part of the media becomes submerged. This submerge media acts to trap the fines that were not filtered on this first run but what i have found was exactly what daisuke said to mike when using BH submerged the fine detritus will be eaten up by the bacteria on the second time round the filter or third time round thus the fast flow recommended. I don't see any fine sediment in the pond after i raised the media from my bottom tray. I moved all the media to the upper three trays and found that the filter worked so much better and water became even clearer in a week. Hope my experience helps you guys

                tewa
                There is no such thing as a zero maintenance pond but the closer you get the more time to enjoy your koi. Soft low TDS water is the perfect pond water.
                http://www.tewakoi.com

                Comment

                • #9

                  With due respect to all, if you have read my posting carefully, I am not saying that the BS/BH system causes hikkui.

                  Since a senior member has reported that his kois have developed hikkui and coincidentally he is using this system, it is my duty to report it to see if others are having the same problem. Like you have said, it was probably due to other factors but until such time that this has been figured out by this member, we just have to look out for it.

                  Breeders are unlikely to have problems with hikkui as their kois will only be in their concrete ponds for a few months while the rest of the time they will be in the mudponds.

                  Judging from the reports there are no doubts that BS/BH works. I am just interested in the longterm (bad) effects, if any, which only time will tell. It is not possible to do longterm experiments on hikkui for obvious reasons. The results and experience of those using this system therefore will be good indicators. Arowana will never develop hikkui.

                  Thanks.

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    The interesting question to me is-- what does happen to the poop? I don't mean
                    the bit that might collect in the bottom of a tray, but all the fish waste, etc.

                    My experience is with shower water pumped directly off the bottom with no settling or prefilter in front.

                    I suspect it is pulverized by the pump, thrown over the media and the heterotrophs eat it. It can't just be all pulverized and washed over the side with the outflow water. Heres why I think that.

                    Back in the early months when the BH and lava rock shower tanks were cycling, they both had a tremendous amount of DOC foam, even with the flush through water. After a few months there was no more foam.

                    Now, when I turn the semi-open system water off, in a few days there is a bacterial bloom and cloud that smells definitely heterotrophic ( a sewer smell ) but no DOC foam.

                    So, if it were just a pulverization thing, there would be DOC foam when the flush water was turned off, right?

                    However, when that flush water is turned off and nutrient builds up, the heterotrophs in the water column go crazy. This sysyem has got to have the flush water to work, in my experience.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Hi Tewa,


                      You are indeed spot on with you view,i had BH submerged in both my past and present filtration and recently removed it to install in a TT and was amazed at the amount of dust or whatever was stuck on the BH and filter grid!!

                      I am not saying it does not work far from it i find its a great media and work very very well.

                      Gazza
                      Regards

                      Gazza

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by shiromujigirl

                        Now, when I turn the semi-open system water off, in a few days there is a bacterial bloom and cloud that smells definitely heterotrophic ( a sewer smell ) but no DOC foam.

                        So, if it were just a pulverization thing, there would be DOC foam when the flush water was turned off, right?

                        However, when that flush water is turned off and nutrient builds up, the heterotrophs in the water column go crazy. This sysyem has got to have the flush water to work, in my experience.
                        Interesting observation. If this is true, I should be able to put in a protein skimmer and reduce the amount of flush water?


                        (Air-driven protein skimmers are relatively maintenance-free. So entire system is relatively maintenance free and wastes very little water).


                        Never mind, I just saw the "no DOC foam".
                        Bancherd

                        Thai Koi-Keepers' Group

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Originally posted by RogerMoo
                          [/i][/b]

                          Ha!Ha!Ha! Dtbh, just do it! Use one of your big FG tank for the long term experiment... never try, never know... and the answer is there for you to see, rather than asking around.... cheers
                          Dear Roger,

                          Have you had any kois with hikkui or have you seen hikkui before? Those who had knows how ugly it looks and how devastating it can be for the owner. I am not going to do an experiment which can potentially harm any fish, and big matured ones at that.


                          ...Yep dtbh, but you voiced your concern, but then again why don't you voice your concern that hikkui was long here before the BS/BH system. Some koi hobbyists who are not using the BS/BH system in their concrete pond, but the conventional system, their koi are also affected by the hikkui disease. That being the case, we should voice our concern and asked all koi hobbyists who are using the conventional system to change theirs or to improve on their system, ie if the system is the factor/problem to it.

                          Everyone knows hikkui can occur in conventional systems. As such I do not have to raise the alarm as it would be redundant. Those who are using them should know what they have to do. Ask them to change? I hope you are joking. Who are we to ask anyone to change? We are here to learn and share our observations and not to enforce our advice or practices.


                          ...Dtbh, I think you said it right... until such time that this has been figured out by this member.... I think he should have an overall view of his system, where he got his prized koi from, what food he is feeding the koi... before you voiced your concern that it might be dued to this system. (one sparrow doesn't make a summer)

                          Considering the serious nature of hikkui (on the koi and the owner) it is the duty of anyone to report it. Just like any serious human diseases, the authorities do not wait until they have figured it out before they report it. It is better for whoever is using this system to be on the lookout and to be mentally prepared. We know one report does not make an epidemic but still it cannot be ignored.


                          ...Dtbh, how are all the members be able to tell you?... most, most they are having the BH/BS system for 2 years. Why not direct your question to the right person - MaedaSan, his ponds are bathed with BH/BS system much, much more longer than most of the members.


                          When I have the chance I will definitely speak to him. Meanwhile there is no harm to be on the alert.

                          Cheers, dtbh




                          Comment

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