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Do beginner hobbyist rely on the bloodline way too much???

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  • Do beginner hobbyist rely on the bloodline way too much???

    I read way too much on the NET that people koi losing color not growing as big etc..


    The thing I think People do not realize is. The Bloodline could be name brand or lets take it a step further could be the ALL Japan Grand Champion..

    But the best fish cannot even thrive in a less than Ideal pond. Buying the bloodline kinda gives us a headstart. The rest is kinda up to us.

    Proper diet, Proper water conditions, Proper pond..

    I hear far too much to blame it on the koi and or dealer...

    thoughts??
    It's a living creature (chit happens)
  • #2

    Joe,
    I think you are exactly right, 100 % spot on in your assumptions but the key word in your initial quote was "beginners".
    Beginners will buy the name and bloodline and expect it to be comparitavely the same as what the breeder could produce regardless of what parameters they can provide. Not to mention the price paid!!
    It is all part of that learning curve we all hear so much about.
    Buying a koi from a specific bloodline and thinking it will achieve greatness in someones own perfect water conditions is but a pipe dream.

    I am but a mere beginner in the ranks of experienced koi keepers. But each day I try to learn something new and improve the water, diet, conditions that my koi live in. If money was no object I could provide the best of the best.....well......maybe. That's what makes it so fun. A neverending journey.

    Preconceived notions are hard to overcome.

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    • #3

      I think people set way to much of expectations on what they buy...Name brand isn't what always works...This hobby is 75% hobbyist skill and 25% koi(bloodline). It's a learning curve all of us go through and me many many years of wasted money to gain knowledge.
      The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

      Comment

      • #4

        Some beginners naive opposite way...

        This beginner started out naive the opposite way: buy koi and love it, and squeeze it, and hold it, and feed it and it will grow up to be fantastic champion! Duh.

        Being in "horse country," it is combo of breeding, environment, and a little bit of luck. Genetics isn't magic recipe guaranteeing that only the best qualities of parents get passed on: the best possible combinations of all traits only occur in a rare few offspring. Just look at differences with humans from same bloodlines - everyone in same family doesn't come out the same! Good bloodlines just let buyer know that this fish has potential for the positive traits of parents.

        Finding that young koi or thoroughbred horse with great potential and then raising it into great adult is mix of knowledge, science, and art. These sorts of hobbies are gambles and experiments - not "sure things."

        If I lose money at the track b/c I bet on a horse someone else recommended based on their knowledge, that was still my choice; same as relying on koi dealers' opinions. I can't very well go around smacking old dudes with my racing form b/c my horse didn't win, now can I?

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        • #5

          ANY breeder and ANY bloodline produces 99% crap fish ever time they spawn. A named breeder/bloodline is no guarantee whatsover that a fish will turn out good. A $500 fish from the 'buzz' name of the moment will have the same potential as a $500 fish from an unknown breeder/bloodline. It is $500 for all the same reasons.

          The only time its of relevance is if a fish is costing tens of thousands of $$ and potential future show winner/parent stock.

          Anyone who chooses a fish for its breeders name simply doesn't know enough to choose for the correct reasons.

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          • #6

            Would not a $500 koi from a known breeder be of a lower quality than a one from a unknown breeder, as most of the money is going for the name, where as the unknown breeder you are paying for the koi not the name.Regards

            Chris

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            • #7

              That hasn't seemed to be the case in my experience, usually I see fish priced on their quality. I guess there will be dealers who will hike the price up and splash the breeders name everywhere but I dont see that a lot to be honest.

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              • #8

                I think that many people, beginner or not, rely on the "name" of what they are buying.

                I like Sony products, having had good luck with them. So if I had the choice, all else being equal, between a Sony TV and another brand, I would pick the Sony. But all else has to be equal. Same features, picture, etc.

                I think in Koi it is the same. I have a "soft spot" for breeders whom I have seen good koi. Hard not to. Adds to the credibility, but one still needs to see the other things that make the koi a keeper.

                But because it is easier and quicker than studying, I think some people just buy Sony.
                Best regards,

                Bob Winkler

                My opinions are my best interpretation of my experiences. They are not set in stone as I intend to always be a student of life. And Koi.

                sigpic

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                • #9

                  While there is certainly something to be said for bloodline, there is ALOT more to said for how you keep it! There are so many variables. Take a $500 import with a big name and put it in an overstocked 700 gallon pond with no water changes and feed it the cheapest food you can find and it wont be anywhere near as big, happy and healthy as a $20 domestic thats put into an understocked 8000 gallon pond thats feed higher quality food and gets regular pond maintainence. Take that same import and put her in the big pond with the domestic and the odds are in favor of the big name import outshining the domestic. So to answer your question on whether they rely on bloodline too much I would have to say unforunately yes they do and its because they don't understand there is more to raising a koi to "greatness" then buying a top name and dumping it in their pond. Why do I say this? Because its only been in the last year or so that I have come to understand this and change the way I keep koi so that they have a chance at their full potential regardless of the breeder.
                  Koi-Unit

                  ZNA Potomac Koi Club

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by Bob Winkler
                    I think that many people, beginner or not, rely on the "name" of what they are buying.

                    I like Sony products, having had good luck with them. So if I had the choice, all else being equal, between a Sony TV and another brand, I would pick the Sony. But all else has to be equal. Same features, picture, etc.

                    I think in Koi it is the same. I have a "soft spot" for breeders whom I have seen good koi. Hard not to. Adds to the credibility, but one still needs to see the other things that make the koi a keeper.

                    But because it is easier and quicker than studying, I think some people just buy Sony.

                    Bob, I like Sony products as well.. But say you buy a Sony Laptop with no experience with any computer. You use the Sony laptop and one day a lot slower than when you bought it. Well now your "Sony" becomes a bad four letter word.. is it because you failed to do routine check ups and or run anti virus scans, and clean the hard disk? (not saying B. Winkler is a Computer Idiot )

                    But you can't have Olympic track runner run in High heels.

                    or

                    You can't have a bloodline koi swim in polluted water and have it come out ready for a show..

                    Bob, you always look at the number one pond at the breeders anyhow...

                    Joe
                    It's a living creature (chit happens)

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Great thread! Hate to repeat the good things already mentioned.
                      IMHO (and I have so much to learn), even koi from renowned breeders that are kept in ponds which are overstocked, way too small, not deep enough, inadequate filtration, less than ideal water conditions, improper diet, etc will not thrive in that environment. Yes, you can have great genes from Japanese bloodlines (and if you are lucky enough, the fish you got had the best in their gene pool), but that will only take you so far. The rest is how you keep the koi.

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                      • #12

                        Dr. B:

                        This is a little off line but you have to know that not all Sony's are equal...Sony has or maybe had a manufacturing facility in CA... I bought a TV made there and had sound board problems after only 4 years... Found out later that it was a quality issue at that factory... Having said that, I have a Sony TV which has been running for 8 years now, no problems...

                        Give my best to WL... , BTW, hows the progress on your pond?

                        Aloha! Mike

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                        • #13

                          Gee, wonder what prompted this thread....

                          Why not just bring it out in the open? I started to tell the version I have, but figure since you started the thread, I would be better coming from you.

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                          • #14

                            Originally posted by Tim C
                            Why not just bring it out in the open? I started to tell the version I have, but figure since you started the thread, I would be better coming from you.
                            I want it to be known that I did not hand Tim my stirring stick...he took it.

                            Now with that out of the way....we are all eyes

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                            • #15

                              Well anyways, back to the thread...The thing is people expect to pay money for a fish, throw it in the pond and expect it to be a grand champion in 2 years, even the Japanese have others condition their fish. Hobby skill is what makes a fish great...If your a newbie I suggest not focusing on breeder or bloodline but focusing on overall quality...
                              The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                              Comment

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