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Aigoromo lost all colour... why?

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  • Aigoromo lost all colour... why?

    We've had Patch since 2001(I think), he was 6" when we got him and a total spook! He's now 19" and daddy to a few fry we have.

    Anyway, to the point of this post.... Patch is no longer a goromo

    1st pic Nov2004 2nd pic Aug05


    We haven't a clue why but he's now a shiromugi He went into the outside 7000+gallon koi pond in May looking like pic#1 but actually better, the robing was cleaning up and the red looked like it was getting darker,.. we pulled him this week looking like pic#2.
    We were told Patch was from the breeder Sakai, came to the dealer through a broker, and at 6" he was probably the most expensive fish we ever purchased.


    Anyone ever seen a goromo lose ALL it's colour in just a couple of weeks? Wasn't fun to watch....


    Thanks for your time,
    Terri
    Backyard Puddle
  • #2

    Dramatic! The curious part is the loss of Sumi as well as the Hi. What were the parameters of the pond water?

    Comment

    • #3

      Big change indeed in such a short period.. I know you guys know how to keep koi so this puzzles me. But that little guy sur had color up so young. Perhpas lots of Color enhancing food early on.... ????

      Not saying that is it but such a change...


      Joe
      It's a living creature (chit happens)

      Comment

      • #4

        Hi Mike,
        Water Q is very good. pH sits at 8.0, KH is about 250ppm - at the time the colour loss was happening the temp was 75F day time. Our maintenance routine is daily or every two days on this pond, keeps the parameters very stable.

        Late May/early June we had several spawnings happen in this pond. It's been suggested to us on another forum that this may have been a factor... if this turns out to be the case I really want to learn more.

        Kind Regards,
        Terri
        Backyard Puddle

        Comment

        • #5

          Hi Keo, how you been

          No colour enhancing food since we've had him... but before I don't know. We feed primarily Hikari Wheatgerm all season and mix in higher protien pellets - along with treats of shrimp and fruit/veg.

          Kind Regards,
          Terri
          Backyard Puddle

          Comment

          • #6

            Originally posted by Ian_&_Terri
            Hi Keo, how you been

            No colour enhancing food since we've had him... but before I don't know. We feed primarily Hikari Wheatgerm all season and mix in higher protien pellets - along with treats of shrimp and fruit/veg.

            Kind Regards,
            Terri

            I am pretty much puzzled as you are.. am looking forward to more posts on this subject..

            Unfortunatley it happens with no solid explanation...
            It's a living creature (chit happens)

            Comment

            • #7

              Originally posted by Ian_&_Terri
              We've had Patch since 2001(I think), he was 6" when we got him and a total spook! He's now 19" and daddy to a few fry we have.

              Anyway, to the point of this post.... Patch is no longer a goromo

              1st pic Nov2004 2nd pic Aug05


              We haven't a clue why but he's now a shiromugi He went into the outside 7000+gallon koi pond in May looking like pic#1 but actually better, the robing was cleaning up and the red looked like it was getting darker,.. we pulled him this week looking like pic#2.
              We were told Patch was from the breeder Sakai, came to the dealer through a broker, and at 6" he was probably the most expensive fish we ever purchased.


              Anyone ever seen a goromo lose ALL it's colour in just a couple of weeks? Wasn't fun to watch....


              Thanks for your time,
              Terri
              From the first pic the beni looks unstable. Which Sakai is it from?
              The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

              Comment

              • #8

                aquitori, the broker who imports Japanese koi to the US states the breeder is Sakai of Hiroshima, the dealer who buys from this broker says the same. I do not know first hand if this is the breeder...? In retrospect I should not have mentioned it at all, my apologies. The broker's web site states that they import koi from several leading Japanese breeders but several years ago they were primarily dealing with Sakai of Hiroshima.

                Lessoned learned, and still learning - what to look for when it comes to good beni. Childer's pointed something out on NI after JR's input and I have gone back to look at early photo's we have of Patch... let's just say my eyes are now open ... I have a clearer understanding of what to look for.
                Patch Nov 2005

                Patch April 2002


                If the beni was weak, I guess it was going to go at some point... just shocked it happened so quickly. At this point I'm under the assumption that there was a triggor to excellerate this.... since it wasn't a drastic pH shift would it have been the spawning?

                Kind Regards,
                Terri
                Backyard Puddle

                Comment

                • #9

                  Terri:

                  Just to set you mind at ease re: Yokozuna Pellets... Have been feeding our koi with this pellet since Dec of 04... no problems and just noticed that the beni on our Sanke and Kohaku have improved over that period...

                  Aloha! Mike

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Well, if the fish did spawn then it could have been the stress...but to me the best way to see how consistant the beni will be is the beni on the head. The beni on the head doesn't have a defined edge, meaning it is blurred...That sign is also a good way of finding good tanchos too...
                    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Some ponds seem to be more prone to disappearing color than others. Mike T and I have a friend who seems to have been especially cursed with koi loosing hi - happened 3-4 times over a couple of years. In some instances, one hi plate will disappear while an adjacent hi plate will remain intact. I have taken some of this guy's orphans and the hi is slowly returning on one fish but not on others.

                      -steve

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        general thoughts on colour loss...

                        in an interview with Mr Nakayama of Ogawa koi farm he said that ph shock often causes a koi to go shiromiji, i belive he said this would often happen in malasia.

                        myself i feel GH plays a big part if it is too high.

                        also the breeders themselfs are often partly to blame as i know that they use shiro muji from time to time in their parent sets, i know hirishima sakai has for ginrin kohaku and i belive sakai isawa has also for sanke, in my mind shiro muji should never be bred from as while some of the fish may remain wonder ful there is always the gamble that its colour could go at any time, i would avoid any young koi bred from koi where one of the parents is shiromuji or going that way at an early age say under 10 years old if at all possible.

                        i can see this also being a possible problem with momotaro koi as they now use tosai male in their breeding programs to speed things up.
                        when of course its possible these very young parent fish could turn shiromuji in the following year or two.

                        so breeders are partly to blame for introducing unstable genes into their breeding programs.

                        it is all too often exclusively blamed on the koi keeper rather than the bloodline yet many breeder even among their best tatagoi and best mud ponds get a certain number of shiromuji when the mud ponds are harvested.

                        kevan.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Disappearing Hi is common enough. Disappearing Sumi in an Asagi-based koi over a period of weeks is something else. I can only think of one other instance, which involved a Suda Goshiki. The Hi on the Ai Goromo does look thin and the edges are wispy. So, I can accept the notion that this is just another instance of sudden Hi loss. But are there any thoughts on the cause for sudden loss of the Ai?

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            While i dont have a great deal of experience with Ai goromo, sometimes i wonder if the koi looses all colour (other than black in sanke and showa) rather than just hi on Kohaku based koi including the shiroji and in this case the ai?
                            the reason i suggest this is that in a Kohaku i had which lost its thick Hi the Shiroji also appeared to thin and loose its thickness. leaving the head rather yellow and the white thin and off colour. perhaps the koi we often consider as loosing Hi are in fact loosing all colour?

                            though as mentioned somehow the black in sanke and showa is often imune to fading, perhaps this is due to the fact that black is more closely gene related (and therefore more stable) to the natural koi colour of the magoi?

                            kevan.

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              I once had a momotaro sanke purchased at 10" with excellent HI quality. He lost all Hi at 16" and became a bekko!

                              No spawning was involved and water parameters were always good (daily tested).

                              Just one of many mysteries in keeping koi!!!

                              Comment

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