Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sani-Tred (permaflex) product.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sani-Tred (permaflex) product.

    Koi-san asked about using permaflex to seal a koi pond in another thread. Permaflex is one component coat of the Sani-tred concrete sealant products. They have been around for over 20 years. For a concrete, gunite, block wall & concrete floor, or wood walled above ground qt, etc it is a good alternative to polyurethane. It is not normally applied over dirt with or without a geotextile fabric underlayment.

    The sealing process consists of three layers or coats. The first is a coat of permaflex. Similar in viscosity to latex paint. This can be applied with a paint roller. The coverage is 240 sq ft per gallon. After this coat becomes tacky (1 - 2 hours or so) the next layer/coat is applied. This is a product called LRB (Liquid Rubber Base). It is a thicker product similar to toothpaste in consistancy. This is applied at a minimum of 40 mils. After this layer/coat dries to a tacky feeling another layer/coat of permaflex is applied. The company, Sani-Tred, has a web site with more information.

    I have seen the product applied and am impressed with the ease of application. The pond I saw is owned by Bob (BobinCA) who lives in Vallejo. Dan (Danzcool) is going to use the product in his pond. If anyone wants to contact either of them, pm me and I will tell you how to get in touch. I am writing this from memory and do not have their information readily available right now. I think those of you in the Bay Area who can get to either of their ponds will find it worth your time.

    This product is definitely less expensive to apply than polyurethane. The pond owner can apply it themselves. It is a forgiving product and easy to work with. I will be using it to seal my shotcrete/concrete pond and the block filter chambers. The cost difference is the reason I will be using it. At prices of $10 per sq ft it would cost me $15,000.00 US to seal my pond. Sani-Tred will cost approximately $3,000 US.

    This product is an alternative to polyurethane, each has strengths and weaknesses (and that is not the purpose of this thread). I would recommend the pond owner do some reading and find someone who will discuss the merits of one or the other without condeming either one. Since polyurethane has been pretty well explained/discussed elsewhere in this forum I did not include anything about it here. If you have not read either of the two threads that show its' application please do so, they are filled with good information.

    Steve
  • #2

    I hope I'm not repeating this post, but forgive me if thats the case. I was just thinking that if you are comparing the cost of the two products, then you have to include the cost of the Shotcrete since the polyurea product is dirt to finished pond.
    Koi-Unit
    " Da Best" Chapter
    xxx

    Comment

    • #3

      Both seem expensive for use as sealer over concrete for block walls.

      Comment

      • #4

        Akinosan, two different applications. In other words apples to oranges. I know that several folks in the bay area have had their ponds sprayed with poly as the structural shell. This is not a construction method normally recommended by Tim Zuber. The poly does not have any real structural integrity for straight wall ponds. This information was posted on another board by Steve Childers who got the information from Tim. Tim did do a pond in Washington state that way but it was dug in soil that is of a rock-like consistency (caliche??). In other words for a straight sided pond Tim himself recommends that poly be applied against some type of a retaining structure, i.e. shotcrete/gunite, block, etc.

        Ryan, yes they are expensive. Their benefit is in providing a very smooth and realitvely soft surface with no rough spots or edges for fish to injure themselves, and in stoping any leaching from the concrete. Another alternative for sealing a concrete pond would be plaster, as in swimming pool construction. For my pond that cost is between $2,000 US and $4,000 US. The $4,000 estimate was from a contractor who I suspect did not really want to do the job but figured either way was fine.

        Steve

        Comment

        • #5

          You can have a sealent mixed in the concrete, a variety of mortor spreads that are easy and cheap to apply youself, products like "sure-wall"/stucco-like products, pool paints, exopy paints and other paints, concrete sealents, variety of chlorinated rubber products (intended for pools), CIM, Herco, etc. Most of these easy to apply and very cheap. Poly has a wider selection of applications than just a sealent for gunite ponds. I would probably use Herco.

          Comment

          • #6

            Hey Steve,
            Yeah I just had my pond sprayed by Jeff Duncal and Tim Zuber, and it was sprayed over geotextile on dirt with a concrete collar around it. It would be the same as doing a EPDM liner pond, except the Polyurea has no folds in it, and I didn't lose any pond volume to a concrete structure. It won't fracture in an earthquake, and will also probably still be here when my grandchildren are my age. Thats a very long time!
            Koi-Unit
            " Da Best" Chapter
            xxx

            Comment

            • #7

              Ryan, you are correct about the products you mentioned. CIM is just as expensive as Sani-tred and more difficult to apply. It is a very good sealant and I would use it if I could be sure I could apply it correctly. I have read reports from two people who used CIM and ran into problems that required re-coating. They had to wait 30 days (I think) before recoating and one of them had to wire brush the first coat. Herco and the other similar products are also comparatively priced. The admixtures do work but are also expensive. My understanding is $50+ dollars per yard. And in my area I could not find one contractor willing to use one. Plus the ready-mix plants bad talk their use.

              What all of this boils down to is the individual pond owner's choice based on what ever research they do themselves or what their contractor offers.

              Once again, I am NOT putting down any other product. A question was asked about permaflex and I attempted to answer that question.

              Steve

              Comment

              • #8

                Akinosan, yeah I saw the pictures in the other thread. Good looking project. My personal preference would be to build a pond with a shotcrete shell. Plus the fact that my wife is a civil engineer and she demands solid construction. Not sure what the earthquake effects are in the bay area with regards to concrete ponds. I wonder how swimming pools fared in the Loma Prieta quake? I know that my pond was build to swimming pool standards as far as structural steel. No earthquakes up here but no cracking either. I know a lady in the Roseville area who used fiberglass to create a shell for her pond and she had a structural collapse. She was able to repair and strengthen it so it worked out okay.

                I think you got a good job and should get the years you hope for.

                Steve

                Comment

                • #9

                  the "lake" got stucco'ed for $1960 by a crew of five. that included supplies.

                  It is "fairly waterproof" which means I loose about .5 of an inch aday..most of that to evaporation here in Florida.

                  In a couple of places the bricks are damp, they do not glisten but are damp. most tell me that will stop as the concrete plugs itself.

                  XYPEX was added to the stucco during mixing. it cost $100 for the amount I needed. It works. It is a powder of seed molecules. When the seed molecules are in the pesence of water and lime they form crystals, which clog the pores.
                  I like it. The Stucco guys said it was a little easier to work the stucco with Xypex in it.

                  And the US Government allows it use for "Potable water containers".

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by luke frisbee
                    the "lake" got stucco'ed for $1960 by a crew of five. that included supplies.

                    It is "fairly waterproof" which means I loose about .5 of an inch aday..most of that to evaporation here in Florida.

                    In a couple of places the bricks are damp, they do not glisten but are damp. most tell me that will stop as the concrete plugs itself.

                    XYPEX was added to the stucco during mixing. it cost $100 for the amount I needed. It works. It is a powder of seed molecules. When the seed molecules are in the pesence of water and lime they form crystals, which clog the pores.
                    I like it. The Stucco guys said it was a little easier to work the stucco with Xypex in it.

                    And the US Government allows it use for "Potable water containers".
                    Hi Luke
                    Do you have pictures of this Stucco? I would like to see it. I have never heard of this type of application. Would enjoy hearing more.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Luke: You gotta post some pics over here ... a new thread maybe?

                      Steve, Akino, Ryan: There is real benefit to anyone thinking of building a pond to share the pluses and minuses of all these products. I think every situation is different. People are working with their own conditions, budgets and availability. How about your thoughts on comparisons?

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by Nancy M.
                        Hi Luke
                        Do you have pictures of this Stucco? I would like to see it. I have never heard of this type of application. Would enjoy hearing more.
                        Nancy,
                        you can go to themudpond.com and see them stuccoing the "lake". Most Everything about "LakeLuke" is under the "pond construction" section and it is the thread titled, "LAKELUKE". The thread starts with me with a shovel in hand and goes for about 16 pages(?). With pics of the rebar being placed, the base being poured, block being laid. 3 Bullet-proof windows, and the Xypex stucco being applied. The stucco looks like regular stucco.
                        there are also quite a few sites about xypex. If after you've gone to the sites and still have a question, I'll be happy to give you any insight I have. but intruth it applied just like stucco ...as you can see in those pics....
                        PS If you plan on reading the whole theread I hope you have an hour of free time.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Originally posted by Steve E
                          What all of this boils down to is the individual pond owner's choice based on what ever research they do themselves or what their contractor offers.

                          Once again, I am NOT putting down any other product. A question was asked about permaflex and I attempted to answer that question.

                          Steve
                          Steve,

                          Thank you for sharing the information on SaniTred products and their application process. This is exactly what I was seaking for, very informative.

                          You are hitting the main point on this threat. The informmation you and others shared, allows pond onwers to choose the alternative sealent products to fit their preference in pond design.

                          Regards,
                          Sanh

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            MikeM,Comparing the various products would be a good thing. I think a comparson page would be a good start for someone trying to decide on which product to use on their pond. I think it would have to be broken down by basic pond shell construction type. In ground concrete (cementious) or block, In ground liner/poly/fiberglass with no retaining structure, and above ground other than concrete are the ones that come to mind. That would give the viewer a look at the various products for the same application.

                            Then the attributes we would want to compare would need to be developed. Then establish a format to present those attributes and I think it could be done in an equitable manner.

                            My first take would be: a) type of product, aa) is it a two part material, b) can it be applied by the pond owner or is specialized equipment required, c) personal protective equipment required to apply the product, d) cost of the product, e) ease of application, i.e. working time, f) how many coats are required, g) minimum and maximum curing times between coats, h) if a misteak is made how long must you wait before reapplying, i) what does it stick to, j) environmental conditions requirements (temp, humidity, etc), k) curing time of any concrete retaining shell, l) how well does it withstand reverse hydrostatic pressure, m) is a primer required and what does it do for the product, n) comments

                            A starting point and may need word smithing to provide the information you are thinking about.

                            Then we would need a lead person to write about each product and maybe share the draft to be sure all of the pertinent information is included.

                            I would hope that somehow the less than desirable attributes would be presented in a factual manner. That is why I believe it would work best if an initial draft was reviewed by others. Also there is the question of who is going to write the descriptions.

                            Is this along the lines of your thoughts?

                            Steve

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Hey Steve,
                              I think thats a great idea. I first read about Polyurea in Koi USA and I just had to find out more about it. My first pond was built with a EPDM liner and Aquascape skimmer & biofalls. I was extremely happy with that system until I started learning more about Koi, and then my submersible pump shorted out, killing seven of my best Koi! I then took all the rock and liner out of the pond and went bigger and deeper. Next was deciding who was going to spray my pond, and I chose Jeff Duncal who was and is learning from Tim & Adam Zuber. I couldn't pass up the opportunity to have that combination doing my pond, so the rest is history. I am incredibly happy with the results, and I think the fish are enjoying their new digs also. There is a lot of choices out there, and most of them are good products. I just happen to have a niece who had to replace her swimming pool after an earthquake, and knew I didn't want any part of that. Perhaps others could share their reasons for how they decided on the materials they have used.
                              Reuben
                              Koi-Unit
                              " Da Best" Chapter
                              xxx

                              Comment

                              All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com
                              Working...
                              X