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  • New Shusui and Asagi

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    Please feel free to share any thoughts (Just domestic/local Koi). The Shusui in the fifth photo seems interesting...
  • #2

    Originally posted by llo2 View Post
    Please feel free to share any thoughts
    Too dark for Asagi/Shusui tosai.

    Comment

    • #3

      Originally posted by ricshaw View Post
      Too dark for Asagi/Shusui tosai.
      ahh... too finished I see, thanks for the feedback.

      Comment

      • #4

        If I was picking one of these, it would be the one in photo 5(of 7).

        I'll leave it to DickB to evaluate. He knows Asagi and Shusui.

        Comment

        • #5

          thanks mike

          When it comes to these color varieties, they tend to over run patterns with red. So for asagi pick the lightest one with the least amount of red. thinking pic one will be ok.

          Unlike asagi, Shusui can be all red (hi shusui) but again I always look to the lighter with least amount of red at this age because as they age they seem to develop more red. pic 5 in shusui would be my choice.

          Do not encourage red development with color food.
          Dick Benbow

          Comment

          • #6

            Just found One expert

            Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
            thanks mike

            When it comes to these color varieties, they tend to over run patterns with red. So for asagi pick the lightest one with the least amount of red. thinking pic one will be ok.

            Unlike asagi, Shusui can be all red (hi shusui) but again I always look to the lighter with least amount of red at this age because as they age they seem to develop more red. pic 5 in shusui would be my choice.

            Do not encourage red development with color food.
            Hi Dick, you have said it all re these two types.
            These photos show some of the pitfalls of buying small fish from unknown breeders or blood lines.
            They will grow into nice pond fish which will add both color and variety to your pond.
            They also show how if you breed you own fish you must know and understand the color development of the type of fish you have bred.
            If you do not understand at what age your fish start to show their final coloration, you could quite easily kill or give away the ones that have the most potential without knowing.
            I do understand how some fish start life dark and their whites come out while others start life light and then add colors.
            I do NOT KNOW YET enough to select fry below 10cm with confidence .
            ANY help on these finer point that members out there will be very welcome!

            Comment

            • #7

              I could write a book LOL But I feel a lot of Kodama's books are helpful in understanding this education.

              Without going into a lot of detail, the NAME of the type of color variety it is tells you alot about what to look for.

              for example: Gin rin showa. because the name leads with GR, that is first priority. What makes good GR.
              3 rows or more of scales. GR easily shows well thru white, the difficult color to clearly show thru is black.
              With small fish like the asagi shusui, pattern for this variety may finish as late as 6-7 years. Pattern at this young age will not be an issue. Hopefully you can see GR thru a black patch for assessment.

              think about what you might look for in these names
              Goshiki-sanke (it's not saying sanke goshiki)
              cha-utsuri ( what makes a good cha,because the sumi pattern may take some time) black is usually strongest in the tail, finding some shoulder sumi on a small koi may indicate a better choice then something showing only in the tail.

              I hope these examples get you to thinking.

              yamabuki (yellow-gold) as Hikari need to have the body sheen
              easily identifyable in sunlight. Size of pecs is also a flagg for similar hikari color varieties. They tend to be proportionately undersized. Put a dozen subjects in a bowl and remove those that do not exibit the sheen. from those left look for the biggest pecs. go with the lightest yellow color.
              Dick Benbow

              Comment

              • #8

                Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
                yamabuki (yellow-gold) as Hikari need to have the body sheen
                easily identifyable in sunlight. Size of pecs is also a flagg for similar hikari color varieties. They tend to be proportionately undersized. Put a dozen subjects in a bowl and remove those that do not exibit the sheen. from those left look for the biggest pecs. go with the lightest yellow color.
                Ah, Dick, you have said it so simply. ...Of course, make it a vat of 100 and my eye has a terrible time focusing on any!... "Where's the one I just saw?!?"

                Comment

                • #9

                  thanks Dick

                  Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
                  I could write a book LOL But I feel a lot of Kodama's books are helpful in understanding this education.

                  Without going into a lot of detail, the NAME of the type of color variety it is tells you alot about what to look for.

                  for example: Gin rin showa. because the name leads with GR, that is first priority. What makes good GR.
                  3 rows or more of scales. GR easily shows well thru white, the difficult color to clearly show thru is black.
                  With small fish like the asagi shusui, pattern for this variety may finish as late as 6-7 years. Pattern at this young age will not be an issue. Hopefully you can see GR thru a black patch for assessment.

                  think about what you might look for in these names
                  Goshiki-sanke (it's not saying sanke goshiki)
                  cha-utsuri ( what makes a good cha,because the sumi pattern may take some time) black is usually strongest in the tail, finding some shoulder sumi on a small koi may indicate a better choice then something showing only in the tail.

                  I hope these examples get you to thinking.

                  yamabuki (yellow-gold) as Hikari need to have the body sheen
                  easily identifyable in sunlight. Size of pecs is also a flagg for similar hikari color varieties. They tend to be proportionately undersized. Put a dozen subjects in a bowl and remove those that do not exibit the sheen. from those left look for the biggest pecs. go with the lightest yellow color.
                  All VERY useful information,I will save this and look out for the Kodama books. Does he tell you which brood stock to put together to produce which variety ?
                  I understand all about shape conformation and what to look for in smaller fish and how to line breed to retain trates of the initial parents.

                  When I was in Japan , some 35 years ago, the Japanese were very good at telling you what you already knew, but 'pretended ' not to understand when you asked about what I regarded as their deep knowledge, hard learned though experience.
                  Can't blame them too much as they knew that this is what gives their fish value over ALL others.
                  I had gone to bed by the time you posted ! Nice to 'talk' anyway !
                  Catch you soon
                  Brian

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
                    Do not encourage red development with color food.
                    Dick, does this apply only to frys only? Or to asagi at all the different growth stages? I have a nissai or sansai narumi asagi that hasn't shown any beni coloration at all.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      The first "cull" or what I refer to as the japanese concept of sembetsu comes about 40 days after hatching.
                      Asagi that are all red or red up to the lateral line already are subject. What is desired at this stage is white tipped noses, red in the pecs. as the fish go thru the next two sessions, red in the tail and a few red scales showing up from the belly along the sides. red on the gill plate is acceptable. What we are looking for is indication of red but not to the position of being over run or too strong in coverage.

                      During the second year the blue asagi han becomes more distinct showing the white spacing more clearly that we often refer to as the white net pattern. Again red is preferred not to be already up to the lateral line but can vary with different breeder/bloodlines at thi age.

                      As the tategoi reach into late second year, we expect to see red dots beginning to show on the dorsal. by the third year the red spreads along the base of the dorsal.

                      Third year we see red in the tail, red gill plates, red in dorsal and what the japanese call "ship's bottom" meaning the belly is now red up to the lateral line. Most critical is the bone white forehead.

                      As we search for the perfect subject, here's a tip. the red in the pec referred to as moto aka, should occupy about a third of the fin near the body. Often you see the pec as all red which is acceptable but not refined. If you notice the all red pec has a white leading edge bone, this is a good indication that by the time they mature (3-4 years) that the red will pull down into a more refined state. Interestingly enough
                      this same pull back happens in showa, whose pec can be solid black with a white leading edge.

                      If your narumi isn't showing any red at all at their 3-4 years of age, chances are good even with color feed it will not develop. Does it meet show standard? No, BUT still worthy of appreciation in the pond
                      to add interest color wise in a pond filled with gosanke.

                      The complaint I hear most about folks regarding shows and asagi is the best they can do is first place.
                      While best in size commonly goes to gosanke, I feel "B" class honors are possible. It's been too many years now for me to recall but an asagi was named GC in an AKCA show. WoW! Did that raise a few eye brows.

                      Asagi was the first color variety to be established and deserves to be appreciated. It is my opinion that without the breeder Hosokai, this wonderful color variety would have slipped into neglect without his
                      efforts. Today there are many breeders of asagi including hosokai. other breeders who I feel also do a wonderful job include otsuke. Pronounced as "Oat-ska".
                      Dick Benbow

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
                        It's been too many years now for me to recall but an asagi was named GC in an AKCA show. WoW! Did that raise a few eye brows.
                        Haha I bet it did!
                        Koi-Unit

                        ZNA Potomac Koi Club

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          You may be referring to my asagi, which was chosen as the CG in the annual Jacksonville, Fl show in the late 90’s. The judging team was Joan and Bob Finnegan. I had just begun keeping koi in 1996 with 26 little fish (tosai) purchased from a local pet store. The following year, the tosai asagi was purchased by a fellow club member and brought back from the Atlanta show - I had asked for a "blue" fish. I believe I paid $25.00 for the little asagi. This was either my first or second koi show, so I had NO IDEA of what I was doing, nor any appreciation at all of just how unusual this fish was. That fish still lives in my pond, but, although she is maybe the largest fish in the pond, she is no longer anything special, with all her belly red (with sumi spots) having overtaken her entire dorsal area. But, with a history of having won a major award, she has a home for life!
                          S. Stone

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                          • #14

                            I do remember the judges, so it had to be your fish! small world.....
                            Dick Benbow

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Originally posted by dick benbow View Post
                              I do remember the judges, so it had to be your fish! small world.....
                              Big world, small Koi community. But neat none the less!!!!
                              Tim

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