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  • Oh yes, I knew it was salt water.... I watch shark week LOL. But yeah this has been a very interesting thread. I've learned ALOT since (high school days). the name rifraf is one I started using since the internet came out and everyone was scared about using your real name for chat and forums. But the name rifraf was from an old cartoon called "Garfield", Garfield had a cousin named "Heathcliff" who I think was friends with a junkyard cat named "rifraf" Who was the rebel and had no cares... always liked that name. But as far as swim bladder problems... I've had fish my whole life.. Never knew much about them until I had the internet. But I had many lose their buoyancy and swim on the side, or sink, or.... I learned a while ago sometimes it's just food lodged in the system pressing against their swim bladder cause it to not work properly, other times it could've been genetics or an internal injury or tumor. I always would give these fish frozen pee's if they were willing to eat, and 9 times out of 10 it would fix the problem for a while... the ones I figures had an internal problem other than food pushing against it, would heal for a few days and the buoyancy problem would return.... I've owned many aquarium fish my whole life and the swim bladder problem USUALLY affected goldfish... not many of my tropical style fish. Either way... I'll let you guys back to your more scientific style discussion, as I learn a lot listening to the likes of you very knowledgeable folks! -(another Mike) lol

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    • Hi Brian,

      The tests we did were specifically for koi ponds and to see what the effect of different turn-over rates and feeding would have on oxygen levels in the pond at various times of the day.

      In the Aqua Culture dams you can get stratification because of a lack of circulation. So you can get more air/oxygen in the surface layer of a dam and very little further down. Look through the glass of a tropical fish tank to get an idea of internal water circulation. A koi pond should have some circulation around the pond as well as from top to bottom or bottom to top.

      You want to bring as much of the water into contact with the atmosphere as quickly as possible for gas exchange or if you like adding oxygen into the pond water (because the koi are continuously taking it out by breathing) and other unwanted gas out into the atmosphere. (degas)

      A pump sucking air on the inlet will put nitrogen and oxygen under pressure into water. It a lot of pressure. And even in a shallow pond water coming out of a pump sucking air will be a problem and there will be too much nitrogen in the system. The koi will become lethargic and off colour even if gas bubbles do not form in the body - usually seen the the fins and skin.

      A venturi operates under a lot of pressure - more than air stones. There are many venturi's that no not mix the air with the water properly and consequently air is pushed into the water under the pressure of the pump. And this can be considerably more than an air stone on the bottom (even taking depth into account). All venturis operate under the same principal - air is forced into the water under pressure. With a properly designed ventui air should be mixed into the water.

      As an experiment: if you take a pump (swimming pool type) and connect it to a pond and return it to the pond so the water is circulating. Then you add a good air pump - that can pump down to 6 ft or 2 meters - to the water line / piping from the pump .... so basically what will happen? The water from the pump has greater pressure and will push the incoming air back and the water will go up the air line and destroy the air pump.

      This is why an air pump and air stones run on its own system.

      I usually associate air bladder problems with bacterial infections. Depth really should not affect the swim bladder. If the fish is uncomfortable swimming down at depth it will just swim at shallower levels. It occasionally happens and the koi gets a bacterial infection in the swim bladder and the fluids produced by the bacteria fill the air bladder up a bit and the fish cannot swim properly.

      Depth has very little to do with growth.

      Chris

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      • Hi rifraf, did not know that about Garfield, see you live and learn !!
        I do know some FAT CATS, BUT THATS ANOTHER THREAD !!!
        not heard the one re frozen peas , don't know why it should work, but if it does, why question it ?

        SEE you know more than you think, you may have gathered that I like to encourage people, as most can do extraordinary things given a bit of a help.
        There are not the can and can't dos . there are the can given help and the may if they want to.
        I would put you down as a can but don't know I can!!!

        Just go for it, what ever it is !!!!

        Brian

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        • Many studies done on animals have shown that being slightly underfed tends to make for a more healthy and long lived specimen. With farm raised where the goal is to grow them as large as fast as possible there are many documented studies showing more disease and shorter life spans. It makes sense to me that koi will follow these same general trends. Feeding heavily for maximum growth and development of body size in koi has been associated with undesired body shapes like double belly, pidgin breast, and even downward curved spine. Combine the heavy feeding in warmer climates where koi are fed and grown 12 months of the year vs a more temperate climate where they are fed heavier only during the growing season and the problem becomes even more an issue. It seems likely to me that this type of forced growing method could be the cause of the problems with jumbo koi and if swim bladder problems occur perhaps it is because the expansion of the muscles and organs collapse the duct that allow the swim bladder to adjust to minor changes in pressure? Kind of reminds me of a sumo wrestler that trains to become as large as possible as young as possible. Anyone ever hear of a 100 year old sumo wrestler?
          Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

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          • Great thread I read all the posts and I'm glad someone brought it up after reading Snaden's article.Brian, do you know Kevin Ellis in Essex? His pond is rather deep correct? Any problems with his big koi with swim bladder issues? The topic of electricity cost came up also and it was stated that we in the USA have cheaper rates than other countries, do we really? I've traveled internationally but the hotels never gave me a utility bill when I checked out.

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            • Moto Kara Koi Kai ZNA

              Lone Star Koi Club

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              • Thank you! Now we can really put in perspective why we design our ponds differently. I was thinking of surveying the good folks here, but the chart paints an accurate picture of power costs, at least in the Philippines and in the Netherlands. Way up there! We work harder for our koi, even without chilling the pond.

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                • The above chart is an average as there are variances especially in the US depending on the state and locale. I have heard of some folks in the US paying .40+ but .10-.11 seems to be the norm and makes the US appear to be on the cheaper side of the equation. Nevertheless, I still cringe and hold my breath whenever the electricity bill arrives, tearing it open before I have even taken two steps from the mailbox. Don't worry Ryan, you're paying for the electricity in your bill one way or another.
                  Moto Kara Koi Kai ZNA

                  Lone Star Koi Club

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                  • Paul, I just changed electric provider to 7¢ per kilowatt hour. This will help my electric bill somewhat.

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                    • Originally posted by yerrag View Post
                      Thank you! Now we can really put in perspective why we design our ponds differently. I was thinking of surveying the good folks here, but the chart paints an accurate picture of power costs, at least in the Philippines and in the Netherlands. Way up there! We work harder for our koi, even without chilling the pond.
                      Not sure there's so much difference. So some folks use airlifts- cool, but not so much different. Power costs are only one metric. Living in America presents it's own hidden costs and burdens- mainly in the form of taxes and insurance. Brother they kick the shit out of me! So, my lower electrical costs are minimum compared to what is gouged from me by taxes. So, we won't even go there..... As for the Netherland and Philippine hobbyists working harder for their koi??? Mmmm......How did you come up with that conclusion? More expensive electrical rates?
                      Tim

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                      • Originally posted by Appliance Guy View Post
                        Not sure there's so much difference. So some folks use airlifts- cool, but not so much different. Power costs are only one metric. Living in America presents it's own hidden costs and burdens- mainly in the form of taxes and insurance. Brother they kick the shit out of me! So, my lower electrical costs are minimum compared to what is gouged from me by taxes. So, we won't even go there..... As for the Netherland and Philippine hobbyists working harder for their koi??? Mmmm......How did you come up with that conclusion? More expensive electrical rates?
                        You got it Tim. Not only that, we have taxes as usurious as that of the US, since we pretty much copy after the US line by line. Our fat cats are not bankers though, it's our electric power oligopolists.

                        Edit- Insurance? I know, it's hard over there. I once almost cancelled an event when I was in Lalaland. At the last minute, I was asked if I had event insurance. I've never heard of such a beast until then. Turns out it was going to end up raising cost through the roof. The owner finally relented on condition that someone they trust could monitor the event so no risk of injury ever occurs. They were afraid they could be sued by the millions if somebody ever got injured, just because it occurred on their premises. Yes that is life over there. Am sure that kind of insurance will reach our shores someday - call it progress ($igh).

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