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  • Pond depth/ Oxygen

    I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about Mike Snaden's article in the new Mark Gardener Digest, discussing issues with making a pond too deep and having too high oxygen saturation. This was written in relationship to growing jumbo koi.

    Let the debate begin!
  • #2

    http://www.niigata-nishikigoi.com/di...ssue1(low).pdf

    Comment

    • #3

      Originally posted by bobbysuzanna View Post
      I am very interested to see what everyone thinks about Mike Snaden's article in the new Mark Gardener Digest, discussing issues with making a pond too deep and having too high oxygen saturation. This was written in relationship to growing jumbo koi.

      Let the debate begin!
      NOT READ THAT FAR YET ! BOBBY SUZANNA

      But will with interest ! Next year I am building ( or having built for me if I am not fit enough to do it )
      Playing with plans over winter, depth is one thing I can't seem to get consensus on !!
      Some say 2 meters deep is plenty others say they would go for 3 metres or more !

      O2 SATURATION is one big subject with many writes and wrongs .
      The last part of this is costs !!!!! A, OF BUILDING B , OF RUNNING COSTS !!! THE BIG ONE

      When I think I have the design sorted I will post it for input, I know that will just confuse me more , but you might just save me time and or money and heartbreak

      Brian

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      • #4

        I've maintains that the optimum depth is 1.5 meters and that genetics is the primary determinant of bulk and not exercise/depth. This would certainly go along with the pond that David Soon has which is only one meter deep. I dare say there are few koi keepers around that have as well developed koi as Brother David.
        I think when he speaks of over saturation with oxygen, he is comparing to air O2 content. It is known that ponds with high organic content which will have O2 saturation as high as 200% of the surrounding air and then drop dramatically at night with photosynthetic cycle.

        http://www.ioos.noaa.gov/qartod/diss...saturation.pdf

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        • #5

          Hi 1.5 m would not be deep enough for an English winter, without heating .This could well be deep enough in a mild winter area , with plenty of shade for summer .

          Brian

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          • #6

            Koi as carp are riverine fish. In my part of the country, 1.5m of depth is a creek or stream...dang sure not a river. While Mike Snaden has a definite eye for picking tosai, no way would I follow his shallow pond advice. There must be strange things going on in UK ponds...like the need to heat the pond....in the summer.
            Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

            Comment

            • #7

              Currently have a 1.5 meter pond, but needs shade in summer and to be enclosed in winter.

              Comment

              • #8

                Originally posted by bobbysuzanna View Post
                I've maintains that the optimum depth is 1.5 meters and that genetics is the primary determinant of bulk and not exercise/depth. This would certainly go along with the pond that David Soon has which is only one meter deep. I dare say there are few koi keepers around that have as well developed koi as Brother David.
                Soooo....David's koi are better developed because of genetics and not conditions????
                Tim

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                • #9

                  Hi. Yes I think so, David's kois prices are wayyyy over the top.

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by MCA View Post
                    Koi as carp are riverine fish. In my part of the country, 1.5m of depth is a creek or stream...dang sure not a river. While Mike Snaden has a definite eye for picking tosai, no way would I follow his shallow pond advice. There must be strange things going on in UK ponds...like the need to heat the pond....in the summer.
                    Yes not read the Heating ponds in our summer bit , but sounds a bit much to me , yes heat means growth to a point .
                    Spot on re Mikes eye for Tosai, has a good video out at the moment. @ around $40
                    Yes it is more about avoiding temp swings , depth means volume in most cases , the more you have the smaller the swings.
                    Reducing temps also reduces spawnings / to a point .

                    Brian

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Originally posted by Appliance Guy View Post
                      Soooo....David's koi are better developed because of genetics and not conditions????
                      He has great conditions! Great water, one meter deep, some flow--- but without genes you can't have big koi

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by MCA View Post
                        Koi as carp are riverine fish. In my part of the country, 1.5m of depth is a creek or stream...dang sure not a river. While Mike Snaden has a definite eye for picking tosai, no way would I follow his shallow pond advice. There must be strange things going on in UK ponds...like the need to heat the pond....in the summer.
                        Not defending Mike's view on oxygen levels... but I like his take on "Koi as carp are riverine fish". Koi are not riverine fish IMO.

                        Mike said; "at the end of the day what you’ve got to consider is that Koi aren’t carp, they aren’t things that have been raised in Europe and genetically adapted to Europe, these things have been genetically adapted if you like over centuries, or generations, should I say, to have been raised in Japan in mud ponds with effectively very low pH levels, very low organic levels in the pond, even though they look dirty"

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          I think Mike Snaden in his interview talked about his observation in Uk that most ponds with depths of 2 to 2.5 have a lot more incidence of swim bladder in older kois as such the new thinking now with regards to the optimal depth is in the range of just 1.5m.

                          I would assume that this is his observation over the years.

                          He did mention also that he does not believe that depth plays a big importance to growth and conformation as such the risk outweighs the benefits.

                          I do not understand how oxygen saturation would be higher at greater depth. Can somebody explain how this is possible?

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            Please help me understand over saturation of oxygen in water.

                            Without aeration at depth, over saturation cannot occur.
                            With aeration at depth, it can occur. Correct?

                            High water pressure is needed to over saturate. And you get that with depth.
                            But at deep levels, with no aeration, water gets little oxygen as it is not exposed to air from the surface. So, over saturation cannot occur.
                            But add bottom aeration to depth/high pressure, and water can get over saturated with oxygen. Correct?

                            But what puzzles me is Mike's statement that even without aeration, a deep pond can still get over saturated.

                            I read about a Japanese breeder that monitors DO levels and keeps the DO at around, if I remember right, 68% to keep koi gills from burning, in cold weather. If so, he must be controlling his aeration. The article didn't mention at what depth he is measuring the DO, but given the danger of over saturation, he must be monitoring it at the bottom. Could he also have the answer to swim bladder problems?

                            I also wonder if over saturation can be as dangerous in warmer temperatures, given that DO levels are low to begin with.

                            Now may be the best time to ask, what is the point of aerating so heavily in warm waters when DO levels max out so easily? Aren't those bubbles just going to waste?

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              [QUOTE=yerrag;209335]Please help me understand over saturation of oxygen in water.

                              Without aeration at depth, over saturation cannot occur.
                              With aeration at depth, it can occur. Correct?

                              High water pressure is needed to over saturate. And you get that with depth.
                              But at deep levels, with no aeration, water gets little oxygen as it is not exposed to air from the surface. So, over saturation cannot occur.
                              But add bottom aeration to depth/high pressure, and water can get over saturated with oxygen. Correct?

                              But what puzzles me is Mike's statement that even without aeration, a deep pond can still get over saturated.

                              I read about a Japanese breeder that monitors DO levels and keeps the DO at around, if I remember right, 68% to keep koi gills from burning, in cold weather. If so, he must be controlling his aeration. The article didn't mention at what depth he is measuring the DO, but given the danger of over saturation, he must be monitoring it at the bottom. Could he also have the answer to swim bladder problems?

                              I also wonder if over saturation can be as dangerous in warmer temperatures, given that DO levels are low to begin with.

                              Now may be the best time to ask, what is the point of aerating so heavily in warm waters when DO levels max out so easily? Aren't those bubbles just going to waste?[/QUOTE]

                              It is my thinking that in temperatures of 25 C above it is very difficult to saturate the water with 100percent oxygen or to even supersaturate the water especially when the air being pumped into the pond is the same or hotter temperature.

                              Comment

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