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what is the concept and role of bloodline in breeding?

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  • #16

    Originally posted by MikeM View Post
    I get fascinated by how breeders sell potential oyagoi to their competitors. It does not occur in an ordinary transaction. Each such sale is a more serious matter than a sale to a hobbyist. (There are stories of Maeda suffering a form of ostracism within the breeder community due to having acquired koi in the guise of being a hobbyist and then using the koi as oyagoi when establishing Momotaro. Obviously, I do not know if such tales are true or much exaggerated.) Why would anyone help a competitor by providing the means to eventually take away customers? The money paid may be substantial, but one is selling the fruit of decades of work and allowing the competitor to catch up that much more quickly... or, at least, giving the opportunity to do so. After the 2004 earthquake decimated so many Niigata breeders, there was an opportunity for the southern Japan breeders to take over the market. Instead of acting in pure self-interest, many supplied replacement oyagoi to their Niigata competitors. Sakai Fish Farm made it possible for several of Niigata's Kohaku breeders to re-start. It is hard to imagine Microsoft doing such a favor for Apple. The apprenticeship custom wherein the son(s) of a breeder will go to work for another breeder for years to learn the business, and then return with deep knowledge of a competitor's techniques and direction, is unlike any other business I know. I cannot imagine British Airways bringing in the future CEO of another airline to learn the business. Some things can only be understood in the context of the culture and tradition.
    And this gets us to the question; Can a person who wants to breed Koi obtain a breeder's bloodline by purchasing several $500.00 Koi?

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    • #17

      $500 dollar oyagoi would probably get less chance of obtaining the best qualities of an oyagoi as these would not be the best representation.

      Very large successful koi breeders knows this well. New or starting breeders around the world think otherwise and think bloodline is a bloodline and its just a numbers and facilities game.

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      • #18

        Originally posted by MikeM View Post
        You are certainly correct about the economic forces. I do not think the response to economic factors can be separated from the cultural environment. Culture directs how the potential choices are perceived and which are acceptable.

        I get fascinated by how breeders sell potential oyagoi to their competitors. It does not occur in an ordinary transaction. Each such sale is a more serious matter than a sale to a hobbyist. (There are stories of Maeda suffering a form of ostracism within the breeder community due to having acquired koi in the guise of being a hobbyist and then using the koi as oyagoi when establishing Momotaro. Obviously, I do not know if such tales are true or much exaggerated.) Why would anyone help a competitor by providing the means to eventually take away customers? The money paid may be substantial, but one is selling the fruit of decades of work and allowing the competitor to catch up that much more quickly... or, at least, giving the opportunity to do so. After the 2004 earthquake decimated so many Niigata breeders, there was an opportunity for the southern Japan breeders to take over the market. Instead of acting in pure self-interest, many supplied replacement oyagoi to their Niigata competitors. Sakai Fish Farm made it possible for several of Niigata's Kohaku breeders to re-start. It is hard to imagine Microsoft doing such a favor for Apple. The apprenticeship custom wherein the son(s) of a breeder will go to work for another breeder for years to learn the business, and then return with deep knowledge of a competitor's techniques and direction, is unlike any other business I know. I cannot imagine British Airways bringing in the future CEO of another airline to learn the business. Some things can only be understood in the context of the culture and tradition.
        The Japanese koi breeding industry and its members need each other. While they compete against each other, they benefit from each other in more ways than imaginable. Together they harness economies of scale that present them advantages that are hard to replicate elsewhere. Think Silicon Valley. Think China's solar cell manufacturing. Also think the Philippine's call center outsourcing business.

        It is wise for SFF to provide breeder stock to bootstrap the recovery of the Niigata breeders. It is not merely goodwill it is after. Having many breeders each independently develop their own bloodlines make for a robust gene pool that are less likely to harbor genetic defects that come with inbreeding. Furthermore, SFF stands to benefit for when it identifies a promising koi from another breeder, it can acquire it and use it as oyagoi for its own breeding efforts. It would be reasonable think that it is among those who stand to benefit the most from such a symbiotic relationship, as with its numerically superior breeding capacity it will likely and quickly harvest the fruits of improvements in its own gene pool.

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        • #19

          Originally posted by sacicu View Post
          $500 dollar oyagoi would probably get less chance of obtaining the best qualities of an oyagoi as these would not be the best representation.

          Very large successful koi breeders knows this well. New or starting breeders around the world think otherwise and think bloodline is a bloodline and its just a numbers and facilities game.

          Yes, we see this so often with domestic breeders. And, there is a failure to understand that no bloodline produces only koi with the traits that define the bloodline. There are always more to be culled than those matching all the traits that cause a line to be deemed desirable. The very best oyagoi in the world will give poor results if in the hands of person who lacks the eye to see which should be kept and which should not. Success in the long term requires even more. The breeder's eye has to identify the little ones who possess traits that move beyond the level of the oyagoi. The novice breeder generally produces koi lesser than the level of the oyagoi. The experienced breeder can produce koi of equivalent stature. It is a master breeder who can rise to a higher level, truly seeing when there is a positive difference.

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          • #20

            Originally posted by sacicu View Post
            $500 dollar oyagoi would probably get less chance of obtaining the best qualities of an oyagoi as these would not be the best representation.

            Very large successful koi breeders knows this well. New or starting breeders around the world think otherwise and think bloodline is a bloodline and its just a numbers and facilities game.
            So true. I think bloodline gives you a presumed standard (not really knowing what you have), but whether or not one has the understanding and or skill to utilize or benefit from a bloodline...that is the journey for most keepers. It is always nice to wish and hope that one will get lucky in finding a couple nice examples in the given gene pool, but it is mother nature that ultimately holds the key. You also need a lot of luck as well. Science will only get you so far. Just my thoughts during my development...

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            • #21

              Thanks friends, I think 500$ koi is more different than 500$ oyagoi. As I seen over the net (never psychically) good to high quality koi from known breeders are around 10,000$, Sakaei, Dainichi, Momotaro. Their dealers also may have several times expensive than this price. I don't understand how an oyagoi could be 500$?

              In some blogs I read about bloodline, I 'm not sure I think Torazo was the first one that start to introduced bloodline of koi and 30 years has continued.
              Last edited by Reza; 08-11-2015, 09:30 AM. Reason: correcting Tarozo

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              • #22

                Originally posted by Reza View Post
                Thanks friends, I think 500$ koi is more different than 500$ oyagoi. As I seen over the net (never psychically) good to high quality koi from known breeders are around 10,000$, Sakaei, Dainichi, Momotaro. Their dealers also may have several times expensive than this price. I don't understand how an oyagoi could be 500$?

                In some blogs I read about bloodline, I 'm not sure I think Torazo was the first one that start to introduced bloodline of koi and 30 years has continued.
                I fount where I've read, it was in The Ultimate Koi - Page 37 - Google Books Result, "Bloodlines can be traced back to the 1920s (Torazo) from which was developed the Jinbei strain. The Sanba line followed 30 years later."

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