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what is the concept and role of bloodline in breeding?

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  • Reza
    replied
    Originally posted by Reza View Post
    Thanks friends, I think 500$ koi is more different than 500$ oyagoi. As I seen over the net (never psychically) good to high quality koi from known breeders are around 10,000$, Sakaei, Dainichi, Momotaro. Their dealers also may have several times expensive than this price. I don't understand how an oyagoi could be 500$?

    In some blogs I read about bloodline, I 'm not sure I think Torazo was the first one that start to introduced bloodline of koi and 30 years has continued.
    I fount where I've read, it was in The Ultimate Koi - Page 37 - Google Books Result, "Bloodlines can be traced back to the 1920s (Torazo) from which was developed the Jinbei strain. The Sanba line followed 30 years later."

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  • Reza
    replied
    Thanks friends, I think 500$ koi is more different than 500$ oyagoi. As I seen over the net (never psychically) good to high quality koi from known breeders are around 10,000$, Sakaei, Dainichi, Momotaro. Their dealers also may have several times expensive than this price. I don't understand how an oyagoi could be 500$?

    In some blogs I read about bloodline, I 'm not sure I think Torazo was the first one that start to introduced bloodline of koi and 30 years has continued.
    Last edited by Reza; 08-11-2015, 09:30 AM. Reason: correcting Tarozo

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  • Akai-San
    replied
    Originally posted by sacicu View Post
    $500 dollar oyagoi would probably get less chance of obtaining the best qualities of an oyagoi as these would not be the best representation.

    Very large successful koi breeders knows this well. New or starting breeders around the world think otherwise and think bloodline is a bloodline and its just a numbers and facilities game.
    So true. I think bloodline gives you a presumed standard (not really knowing what you have), but whether or not one has the understanding and or skill to utilize or benefit from a bloodline...that is the journey for most keepers. It is always nice to wish and hope that one will get lucky in finding a couple nice examples in the given gene pool, but it is mother nature that ultimately holds the key. You also need a lot of luck as well. Science will only get you so far. Just my thoughts during my development...

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  • MikeM
    replied
    Originally posted by sacicu View Post
    $500 dollar oyagoi would probably get less chance of obtaining the best qualities of an oyagoi as these would not be the best representation.

    Very large successful koi breeders knows this well. New or starting breeders around the world think otherwise and think bloodline is a bloodline and its just a numbers and facilities game.

    Yes, we see this so often with domestic breeders. And, there is a failure to understand that no bloodline produces only koi with the traits that define the bloodline. There are always more to be culled than those matching all the traits that cause a line to be deemed desirable. The very best oyagoi in the world will give poor results if in the hands of person who lacks the eye to see which should be kept and which should not. Success in the long term requires even more. The breeder's eye has to identify the little ones who possess traits that move beyond the level of the oyagoi. The novice breeder generally produces koi lesser than the level of the oyagoi. The experienced breeder can produce koi of equivalent stature. It is a master breeder who can rise to a higher level, truly seeing when there is a positive difference.

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  • yerrag
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeM View Post
    You are certainly correct about the economic forces. I do not think the response to economic factors can be separated from the cultural environment. Culture directs how the potential choices are perceived and which are acceptable.

    I get fascinated by how breeders sell potential oyagoi to their competitors. It does not occur in an ordinary transaction. Each such sale is a more serious matter than a sale to a hobbyist. (There are stories of Maeda suffering a form of ostracism within the breeder community due to having acquired koi in the guise of being a hobbyist and then using the koi as oyagoi when establishing Momotaro. Obviously, I do not know if such tales are true or much exaggerated.) Why would anyone help a competitor by providing the means to eventually take away customers? The money paid may be substantial, but one is selling the fruit of decades of work and allowing the competitor to catch up that much more quickly... or, at least, giving the opportunity to do so. After the 2004 earthquake decimated so many Niigata breeders, there was an opportunity for the southern Japan breeders to take over the market. Instead of acting in pure self-interest, many supplied replacement oyagoi to their Niigata competitors. Sakai Fish Farm made it possible for several of Niigata's Kohaku breeders to re-start. It is hard to imagine Microsoft doing such a favor for Apple. The apprenticeship custom wherein the son(s) of a breeder will go to work for another breeder for years to learn the business, and then return with deep knowledge of a competitor's techniques and direction, is unlike any other business I know. I cannot imagine British Airways bringing in the future CEO of another airline to learn the business. Some things can only be understood in the context of the culture and tradition.
    The Japanese koi breeding industry and its members need each other. While they compete against each other, they benefit from each other in more ways than imaginable. Together they harness economies of scale that present them advantages that are hard to replicate elsewhere. Think Silicon Valley. Think China's solar cell manufacturing. Also think the Philippine's call center outsourcing business.

    It is wise for SFF to provide breeder stock to bootstrap the recovery of the Niigata breeders. It is not merely goodwill it is after. Having many breeders each independently develop their own bloodlines make for a robust gene pool that are less likely to harbor genetic defects that come with inbreeding. Furthermore, SFF stands to benefit for when it identifies a promising koi from another breeder, it can acquire it and use it as oyagoi for its own breeding efforts. It would be reasonable think that it is among those who stand to benefit the most from such a symbiotic relationship, as with its numerically superior breeding capacity it will likely and quickly harvest the fruits of improvements in its own gene pool.

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  • sacicu
    replied
    $500 dollar oyagoi would probably get less chance of obtaining the best qualities of an oyagoi as these would not be the best representation.

    Very large successful koi breeders knows this well. New or starting breeders around the world think otherwise and think bloodline is a bloodline and its just a numbers and facilities game.

    Leave a comment:


  • ricshaw
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeM View Post
    I get fascinated by how breeders sell potential oyagoi to their competitors. It does not occur in an ordinary transaction. Each such sale is a more serious matter than a sale to a hobbyist. (There are stories of Maeda suffering a form of ostracism within the breeder community due to having acquired koi in the guise of being a hobbyist and then using the koi as oyagoi when establishing Momotaro. Obviously, I do not know if such tales are true or much exaggerated.) Why would anyone help a competitor by providing the means to eventually take away customers? The money paid may be substantial, but one is selling the fruit of decades of work and allowing the competitor to catch up that much more quickly... or, at least, giving the opportunity to do so. After the 2004 earthquake decimated so many Niigata breeders, there was an opportunity for the southern Japan breeders to take over the market. Instead of acting in pure self-interest, many supplied replacement oyagoi to their Niigata competitors. Sakai Fish Farm made it possible for several of Niigata's Kohaku breeders to re-start. It is hard to imagine Microsoft doing such a favor for Apple. The apprenticeship custom wherein the son(s) of a breeder will go to work for another breeder for years to learn the business, and then return with deep knowledge of a competitor's techniques and direction, is unlike any other business I know. I cannot imagine British Airways bringing in the future CEO of another airline to learn the business. Some things can only be understood in the context of the culture and tradition.
    And this gets us to the question; Can a person who wants to breed Koi obtain a breeder's bloodline by purchasing several $500.00 Koi?

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeM
    replied
    Originally posted by sacicu View Post
    Mike,

    While culture of Japanese is interesting. I am more inclined to see the growth in the development of the koi industry in Japan as based on necessity.

    Fact is improvements in koi is because of competition. Dainichi is willing to spend millions of dollars for several momotaro's oyagoi because they have the financial resources to do so and accept that momotaro's impressive growth rate in showa variety might help infuse the next generation of faster growing dainichi showa. Momotaro is willing to sell as long as the price is right. It has been this way in Japan. Call it cultural cooperation, perhaps. IMO, I just call it necessity. In a very competitive market, one has to keep up or close shop. No big successful farm in Japan can compete in the cheap low quality koi market controlled by many farms in different countries but no country can compete in high quality koi which Japan dominates.

    Now here's the question? How is it that their local koi collectors in Japan are shrinking year by year while the yen value has been steadily shrinking? Why is it that there are much fewer koi farms in Japan now?
    You are certainly correct about the economic forces. I do not think the response to economic factors can be separated from the cultural environment. Culture directs how the potential choices are perceived and which are acceptable.

    I get fascinated by how breeders sell potential oyagoi to their competitors. It does not occur in an ordinary transaction. Each such sale is a more serious matter than a sale to a hobbyist. (There are stories of Maeda suffering a form of ostracism within the breeder community due to having acquired koi in the guise of being a hobbyist and then using the koi as oyagoi when establishing Momotaro. Obviously, I do not know if such tales are true or much exaggerated.) Why would anyone help a competitor by providing the means to eventually take away customers? The money paid may be substantial, but one is selling the fruit of decades of work and allowing the competitor to catch up that much more quickly... or, at least, giving the opportunity to do so. After the 2004 earthquake decimated so many Niigata breeders, there was an opportunity for the southern Japan breeders to take over the market. Instead of acting in pure self-interest, many supplied replacement oyagoi to their Niigata competitors. Sakai Fish Farm made it possible for several of Niigata's Kohaku breeders to re-start. It is hard to imagine Microsoft doing such a favor for Apple. The apprenticeship custom wherein the son(s) of a breeder will go to work for another breeder for years to learn the business, and then return with deep knowledge of a competitor's techniques and direction, is unlike any other business I know. I cannot imagine British Airways bringing in the future CEO of another airline to learn the business. Some things can only be understood in the context of the culture and tradition.

    Leave a comment:


  • yerrag
    replied
    Originally posted by sacicu View Post
    Mike,

    While culture of Japanese is interesting. I am more inclined to see the growth in the development of the koi industry in Japan as based on necessity.

    Fact is improvements in koi is because of competition. Dainichi is willing to spend millions of dollars for several momotaro's oyagoi because they have the financial resources to do so and accept that momotaro's impressive growth rate in showa variety might help infuse the next generation of faster growing dainichi showa. Momotaro is willing to sell as long as the price is right. It has been this way in Japan. Call it cultural cooperation, perhaps. IMO, I just call it necessity. In a very competitive market, one has to keep up or close shop. No big successful farm in Japan can compete in the cheap low quality koi market controlled by many farms in different countries but no country can compete in high quality koi which Japan dominates.

    Now here's the question? How is it that their local koi collectors in Japan are shrinking year by year while the yen value has been steadily shrinking? Why is it that there are much fewer koi farms in Japan now?
    Japan has been in recession since 1990. And they don't have authority to print US dollars like the US Federal Reserve any which way.

    Leave a comment:


  • sacicu
    replied
    Mike,

    While culture of Japanese is interesting. I am more inclined to see the growth in the development of the koi industry in Japan as based on necessity.

    Fact is improvements in koi is because of competition. Dainichi is willing to spend millions of dollars for several momotaro's oyagoi because they have the financial resources to do so and accept that momotaro's impressive growth rate in showa variety might help infuse the next generation of faster growing dainichi showa. Momotaro is willing to sell as long as the price is right. It has been this way in Japan. Call it cultural cooperation, perhaps. IMO, I just call it necessity. In a very competitive market, one has to keep up or close shop. No big successful farm in Japan can compete in the cheap low quality koi market controlled by many farms in different countries but no country can compete in high quality koi which Japan dominates.

    Now here's the question? How is it that their local koi collectors in Japan are shrinking year by year while the yen value has been steadily shrinking? Why is it that there are much fewer koi farms in Japan now?

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeM
    replied
    Dick, I know you are a true japanophile. My interest has been pretty much limited to koi and history. The history is remarkable. When forced in the 1850s to 'open' to trade, the Japanese people saw that their feudalism no longer worked. Rather than become like China, there was a determination to re-make the nation. The shogunate fell, the Meiji Restoration set off a conscious effort to adopt and adapt. By 1905, just a half century, Japan was defeating imperial Russia on land and on the seas and recognized as one of the world's powers. From feudalism to industrial giant in just 50 years. It is an amazing accomplishment unequaled by any other nation or people in so short a time. That determination to rise higher must have deep cultural roots. .....Perhaps from two thousand years of wanting respect while knowing China was the center of everything?

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  • dick benbow
    replied
    "As much as Japanese culture honors tradition and ancestry, the real hallmark is constant striving for a higher level of accomplishment."

    In all my involvement in things japanese, I cannot think of a truer statement.....right on Mike....spot on!

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeM
    replied
    Many years ago the first popular koi discussion board for 'serious koikeepers' was Nishikigoi International, referred to as the NI board. Back 15-16 or so years ago, there was a discussion going on in which there were comments expressing regret that no true Torazo Sanke could be found. I was a comparative novice and asked the 'dumb question', why not? Surely some koi collectors would want in have an example of such a famous line of Sanke. I was quickly informed that unlike other hobbies, with koikeeping there is no value in nostalgic, historical examples of genetic lines long surpassed by new improvements. A koikeeper may keep some photos for reference, but pond space goes to the best and highest quality that can be obtained.

    I have no doubt that the Kawakami family could have maintained its famous 'Tiger Sanke' line, but that would have left them behind as improvements in Sanke were made by others. They certainly had the oyagoi, ponds and facilities to keep the old line going, but who would buy it? As much as Japanese culture honors tradition and ancestry, the real hallmark is constant striving for a higher level of accomplishment. The Torazo Sanke was so famous that even to this day the koi farm is known as Torazo and Tsuyoshi Kawakami is even referred to as Torazo as if that was his personal name (although it was his grandfather and father who created and produced the Torazo Sanke). The Torazo Sanke was the cutting edge accomplishment of the late 1960s. It was long ago surpassed. The name lives on in memory and as the name of the koi farm, but long, long ago the farm began breeding Sanke with Matsunosuke parentage. I believe Sanke are still produced at Torazo, but the farm is much better known today for producing very fine Kohaku. I cannot recall the last time I saw a dealer listing Sanke from Torazo for sale. Their Kohaku sell out quickly.

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  • Reza
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeM View Post
    The Mako Showa chart shows why I consider Momotaro in the process of creating a true bloodline of their own. The beginning is Maeda's well-known Mako Kohaku, which came out of Sanke with Matsunosuke heritage. This gave a parentage grounded in length and Hi quality. Showa was then mixed in to produce Showa. (I am not certain of the source of the Showa Momotaro was raising back then. I have heard a couple of different stories, all of which may be partially true.) This produced a Showa with a great body form, quite unlike traditional Showa, but lacking some of the quality traits becoming expected of the best Showa. The chart shows how Showa from Takeda and Dainichi were mixed in, producing the fish distributed as Mako Showa several years ago. Since then, the main female oyagoi have been Momotaro-produced koi. He now lists Lion Queen (listed at 99cm, but reportedly over a meter) and Red Tiger (listed at 95cm, but reportedly edging closer to a meter) as the main female Showa oyagoi. These are no longer being called 'Mako Showa'. In last season's auctions there were other female oyagoi originating at Momotaro as well. I would like to know what males are being used for 2015 spawnings and their heritage. I know some males originating at Momotaro have been used in the past. I expect males from other sources have also been brought in. I have not seen reports on what Maeda-san is up to now. He is never satisfied with how things are.
    Thanks mike, what I understand is that a bloodline is a process of making a hi quality fish as oyagoi or breeder special quality (like brand). this process may be start with/without other bloodlines. I found most recently developed bloodlines have Matsunosuke in the beginning and like Momotaro's Mako Showa, and in progress by crossing result with Dainichi , Mako Kohaku they achieve to Mako Showa BloodLine. here is some question how long a breeder could use of its own bloodline and how they could save it?

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  • MikeM
    replied
    The Mako Showa chart shows why I consider Momotaro in the process of creating a true bloodline of their own. The beginning is Maeda's well-known Mako Kohaku, which came out of Sanke with Matsunosuke heritage. This gave a parentage grounded in length and Hi quality. Showa was then mixed in to produce Showa. (I am not certain of the source of the Showa Momotaro was raising back then. I have heard a couple of different stories, all of which may be partially true.) This produced a Showa with a great body form, quite unlike traditional Showa, but lacking some of the quality traits becoming expected of the best Showa. The chart shows how Showa from Takeda and Dainichi were mixed in, producing the fish distributed as Mako Showa several years ago. Since then, the main female oyagoi have been Momotaro-produced koi. He now lists Lion Queen (listed at 99cm, but reportedly over a meter) and Red Tiger (listed at 95cm, but reportedly edging closer to a meter) as the main female Showa oyagoi. These are no longer being called 'Mako Showa'. In last season's auctions there were other female oyagoi originating at Momotaro as well. I would like to know what males are being used for 2015 spawnings and their heritage. I know some males originating at Momotaro have been used in the past. I expect males from other sources have also been brought in. I have not seen reports on what Maeda-san is up to now. He is never satisfied with how things are.

    Leave a comment:

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