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  • Selecting Oyagoi

    Mark Gardner has posted about a possible oyagoi matching at Purdin Koi Farm, where he was visiting recently. He covers so many aspects of oyagoi selection in a conversational tone, I thought it worth linking here.

    A Showa match made in heaven......? » Nishikigoi.Life
  • #2

    I find the article though insightful, it is lacking in substances and expert breeder opinion. Why not show the present female oyagoi along with the male oyagois and explain according to the breeder(Purdin) why they selected the present male and female oyagoi instead of Mark guessing and showing an example of a future potential female(still young) and male(which in his opinion can win in Ajks?) while describing the attributes he sees as if he is the breeder or has lots of experience being a successful breeder. Describing quality traits at a certain age is good for koishow but does not necessarily mean its best to be used as oyagoi. What if the male stopped growing or the beni is shortlived or prone to hikui, would the breeder not consider these issues.

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    • #3

      Originally posted by sacicu View Post
      I find the article lacking in substances. Why not show the present female oyagoi along with the male oyagois and explain according to the breeder(Purdin) why they selected the present male and female oyagoi instead of Mark guessing and showing an example of a future potential female(still young) and male(which in his opinion can win in Ajks?) while describing the attributes he sees as if he is the breeder. He should also note that many breeders even in Japan pick out tategoi that can be use as future oyagoi but once they have used them the results are not good.

      Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
      I wouldn't expect a short article to be within the scope of describing the selections and as to why, AND with pictures. Are you kidding? You are right in that there are successes and failures. On the farm there are known succesful oyagoi combos being used as well as new combos being tried. Mark was merely showing two very lovely koi that could very well indeed throw crap. But you sure have to start somewhere.

      Breeding is trial and error. There is no magic formula. Obviously over time a breeder begins to know what the koi throws, but that's only part of it. Maybe the koi throws good koi but they crap out and break down quickly? What if they never get to size? These things you do not know for years. Throughout Purdin Koi Farm there are many, many candidates, but like any breder- from Dainichi to homebred- it is all about space. So you use your feel of the koi and take a shot.
      Tim

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      • #4

        Originally posted by Appliance Guy View Post
        I wouldn't expect a short article to be within the scope of describing the selections and as to why, AND with pictures. Are you kidding? You are right in that there are successes and failures. On the farm there are known succesful oyagoi combos being used as well as new combos being tried. Mark was merely showing two very lovely koi that could very well indeed throw crap. But you sure have to start somewhere.

        Breeding is trial and error. There is no magic formula. Obviously over time a breeder begins to know what the koi throws, but that's only part of it. Maybe the koi throws good koi but they crap out and break down quickly? What if they never get to size? These things you do not know for years. Throughout Purdin Koi Farm there are many, many candidates, but like any breder- from Dainichi to homebred- it is all about space. So you use your feel of the koi and take a shot.
        Like I said , the article lacked substance and real opinions of a breeder to make it an interesting read. Instead I just saw 2 lovely showas and in Mark's (who is not a breeder) journalistic opinion would make good future oyagois of the farm base on his sound judgement? He already visited the farm why not just take a picture of the showa oyagoi and let the breeder describe why they chose it as their oyagoi instead of 2 showa who may or not make it as future oyagoi.

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        • #5

          Just some of the males used....


          Attached Files
          Tim

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          • #6

            Originally posted by Appliance Guy View Post
            Just some of the males used....


            Now thats better Tim. Any picture of the female oyagois used?[emoji1]

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            • #7

              [QUOTE=sacicu;220179]I find the article though insightful, it is lacking in substances and expert breeder opinion. Why not show the present female oyagoi along with the male oyagois and explain according to the breeder(Purdin) why they selected the present male and female oyagoi instead of Mark guessing and showing an example of a future potential female(still young) and male(which in his opinion can win in Ajks?) while describing the attributes he sees as if he is the breeder or has lots of experience being a successful breeder. Describing quality traits at a certain age is good for koishow but does not necessarily mean its best to be used as oyagoi. What if the male stopped growing or the beni is shortlived or prone to hikui, would the breeder not consider these issues.

              They are the rock stars of US koi breeding who have thousands of fans and not just because of their fish but the unselfish sharing of their knowledge. You would have to come to the Florida show to understand why the article was written.
              Regards
              Eugene

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              • #8

                Originally posted by sacicu View Post
                I find the article though insightful, it is lacking in substances and expert breeder opinion. Why not show the present female oyagoi along with the male oyagois and explain according to the breeder(Purdin) why they selected the present male and female oyagoi instead of Mark guessing and showing an example of a future potential female(still young) and male(which in his opinion can win in Ajks?) while describing the attributes he sees as if he is the breeder or has lots of experience being a successful breeder. Describing quality traits at a certain age is good for koishow but does not necessarily mean its best to be used as oyagoi. What if the male stopped growing or the beni is shortlived or prone to hikui, would the breeder not consider these issues.

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                I'm glad you found the article insightful.

                In the fullness of time the Purdin oyagoi will be introduced.

                Sorry you don't feel I have any experience to discuss oyagoi, I have witnessed many spawning, seen many oyagoi and 100,000's of thousands of offspring, and discussed the subject with many breeders.

                With regards to the male, pray tell in your opinion how long one should wait to find out whether the male has stopped growing or has hikui?
                Mark Gardner

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                • #9

                  Originally posted by sacicu View Post
                  Like I said , the article lacked substance and real opinions of a breeder to make it an interesting read. Instead I just saw 2 lovely showas and in Mark's (who is not a breeder) journalistic opinion would make good future oyagois of the farm base on his sound judgement? He already visited the farm why not just take a picture of the showa oyagoi and let the breeder describe why they chose it as their oyagoi instead of 2 showa who may or not make it as future oyagoi.

                  Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

                  The breeder, who has invested millions on dollars on his farm, spent many days, weeks and months in Japan learning from breeders, as I have, values my opinion and consideration far more that you it seems. Cest la vie.
                  Mark Gardner

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                  • #10

                    Originally posted by sacicu View Post
                    Like I said , the article lacked substance and real opinions of a breeder to make it an interesting read. Instead I just saw 2 lovely showas and in Mark's (who is not a breeder) journalistic opinion would make good future oyagois of the farm base on his sound judgement? He already visited the farm why not just take a picture of the showa oyagoi and let the breeder describe why they chose it as their oyagoi instead of 2 showa who may or not make it as future oyagoi.

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                    sacicu, never been a fan of anonymous conversations and there is no indication of who you are, other than coming from Philippines. Out of interest do we know each other?
                    Mark Gardner

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                    • #11

                      Originally posted by MikeM View Post
                      Mark Gardner has posted about a possible oyagoi matching at Purdin Koi Farm, where he was visiting recently. He covers so many aspects of oyagoi selection in a conversational tone, I thought it worth linking here.

                      A Showa match made in heaven......? » Nishikigoi.Life
                      Mike, sorry we couldn't chat more in Orlando. Just a blog post with my own 'feelings', a very important and much used word among Koi breeders.
                      Mark Gardner

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                      • #12

                        Originally posted by markgardner View Post
                        I'm glad you found the article insightful.

                        In the fullness of time the Purdin oyagoi will be introduced.

                        Sorry you don't feel I have any experience to discuss oyagoi, I have witnessed many spawning, seen many oyagoi and 100,000's of thousands of offspring, and discussed the subject with many breeders.

                        With regards to the male, pray tell in your opinion how long one should wait to find out whether the male has stopped growing or has hikui?
                        Hi Mark.

                        Its a good thing that there is a followup on this Purdin oyagoi series as it would be more in depth to how a breeder chose a particular oyagoi.

                        My comment is just my opinion and not meant to at all discredit the work of domestic breeders. Personally I do think local breeders do have a chance to compete against the best in Japan and I am all for it. Hearing what local breeders think and how they do their selection is an interesting article. Each breeder is unique in choosing their respective oyagoi for a particular line. And every breeder may not agree with other breeders opinion nor with the opinion of a journalist who have witnesses numerous spawning and different oyagoi from different breeders.

                        My point is though as a journalist you may have witness numerous pairing of different breeders, writing an article on two showas in Purdin that can be potential oyagoi according to you is insightful base on your experience as a journalist but not as an actual breeder who have strategies, goals both short term and long term. Nothing wrong with it actually its just that correct me if I am wrong but you failed to mentioned in the article the opinion of the breeder which I think is whats lacking. You mentioned what you felt are the redeeming qualities of both showas that is suitable for future oyagois for Purdin. If the farm agrees and value with your expert opinion then please mention it in the article. Nothing wrong with including "... and btw the farm 100% agrees with my expert opinion."

                        Anyway, I think your work as a journalist in the feild of koi is important and I respect your opinion as a journalist.

                        Is hikui prone beni and male potential for growth considered by some breeders in Japan in their oyagoi selection? Perhaps that would be a good future article that you can investigate and write about based on your opinion or better yet based on the opinion of many well known breeders.
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                        • #13

                          I have been tied up for a few days. I posted the link because Mark touched on so many points about oyagoi selection that have been discussed in other threads over the years, and did it in so simple a conversational way in reference to particular koi, rather than a theoretical analysis. There could be full essays on each of a dozen different factors referenced. I tend to get detailed and 'carefull' (some would say 'anal') when I write on something.... leading to those long posts not everyone can wade through. For many, the concise, conversational approach can get ideas across more effectively.

                          Oyagoi selection is so hugely important for a breeder. Obviously, the selection determines whether breeding goals are met. Perhaps not as obvious is the huge financial cost if a poor selection is made. There is a lot of expense in raising up a spawn only to find that all but a few have to be sold off in bulk. And, there is the lost opportunity. A breeder may think about all the theoretical factors in making a decision, but there will always be pluses and minuses with every alternative. In the end, as with nearly all decisions, there will be a sense that a particular trait (body form, let's say) is the main trait needing improvement in a line. And, so, a female parent is chosen mainly for that one trait and hard choice is the male (usually two or three males) that will offset/enhance the less desirable traits of the female. No matter how analytical one wants to be, there will be a gut feeling. You try to reduce the risk by using multiple males, but the risk of an unsuccessful match always overhangs. And, it will be many months or even a few years before you know. More often than not, there will be no great leap forward.

                          It's a crazy business being a koi breeder.

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                          • #14

                            Originally posted by markgardner View Post
                            Mike, sorry we couldn't chat more in Orlando.
                            It is always a problem for me when working the show. Saturday is the only day when I'm not on the run, and even then the 'free moments' come in short pauses. Some year I have to get someone to handle my vendor duties so I can spend full time talking with folks.

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                            • #15

                              Originally posted by MikeM View Post
                              a female parent is chosen mainly for that one trait and hard choice is the male (usually two or three males) that will offset/enhance the less desirable traits of the female. No matter how analytical one wants to be, there will be a gut feeling. You try to reduce the risk by using multiple males, but the risk of an unsuccessful match always overhangs. And, it will be many months or even a few years before you know.
                              I have a question regarding the traits of the female and male that you "hope" pass on to offspring. I have read/heard that using females with the appropriate body conformation is a step in the right direction. I know there is no way to know what other traits (good and bad) get passed on, so how would the male(s) contribute.

                              I have two pairs to select from and not sure on what to toss together. I'm thinking to just taking by best (large) female and best male(s) of same type and hope for the best. I have old style and new style showa pairs that I can give a go. My only dilema is if it would be more predictable if I keep the old style showa paired with same old style? (Both with decent size/conformation/sumi)

                              OR, I can do a new style to new style pairing with a similar size/age female and two younger nisai-sansai males (w/brighter white skin). Just rolling the dice............

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