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Concrete Pond and its standards, who knows?

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  • #16

    Originally posted by coolwon View Post
    Thank you, it will be interesting to read the feedback on the topic.

    Garfield.
    please read fallowing post may be you find it usefull.
    http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-f...grow-well.html

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    • #17

      Reza,

      If I can only give you one piece of pond construction advice, it would be this:

      Build you pond around the placement of bottom drains, surface skimmers and returns. The most important function of a pond (other than to hold water and house fish) is to be self-cleaning. If you get this wrong, not even the best filtration system in the world will yield good results. Some well-documented hydraulics studies were made available on the internet by Cornell University in NY, USA. Look up the Cornell-Type Dual Drain Tank for starters. These studies focused on methods of a) getting bottom drains to suck up debris without leaving dead spots, b) distributing oxygen without leaving dead spots and c) creating currents for fish to swim against. Most modern ponds follow this thinking, whether the designers are aware of it or not.

      Seeing that I am not only giving one piece of advice today, also this:

      If your source water is naturally high in pH (say 8.0 or higher ONCE CO2 LEVELS ARE NORMALISED), do not finish your pond in concrete or any other cementitious product. Once constructed, coat with polyurethane. Cementitious products WILL leach into your water despite being properly cured and give you a high (but stable) pH. This leaching will continue in small amounts for 10 years or more. It will not be over after a few months. Then one day you have a crack and now uncured cement is exposed to pond water …

      Aim for flow rates of approximately 0.40 – 0.55 m/s in the bottom drains. Too fast and debris brakes up. Too slow and debris / fish poop gets stuck in the plumbing and requires frequent flushing. Let me know if you need any of this translated into flow rates per hour or minute.

      Once you have the pond designed, only then design filtration and decide on circulation pumps.

      Good luck with the pond build.
      Jacques

      Comment

      • #18

        Originally posted by Jacques View Post
        Reza,

        If I can only give you one piece of pond construction advice, it would be this:

        Build you pond around the placement of bottom drains, surface skimmers and returns. The most important function of a pond (other than to hold water and house fish) is to be self-cleaning. If you get this wrong, not even the best filtration system in the world will yield good results. Some well-documented hydraulics studies were made available on the internet by Cornell University in NY, USA. Look up the Cornell-Type Dual Drain Tank for starters. These studies focused on methods of a) getting bottom drains to suck up debris without leaving dead spots, b) distributing oxygen without leaving dead spots and c) creating currents for fish to swim against. Most modern ponds follow this thinking, whether the designers are aware of it or not.

        Seeing that I am not only giving one piece of advice today, also this:

        If your source water is naturally high in pH (say 8.0 or higher ONCE CO2 LEVELS ARE NORMALISED), do not finish your pond in concrete or any other cementitious product. Once constructed, coat with polyurethane. Cementitious products WILL leach into your water despite being properly cured and give you a high (but stable) pH. This leaching will continue in small amounts for 10 years or more. It will not be over after a few months. Then one day you have a crack and now uncured cement is exposed to pond water …

        Aim for flow rates of approximately 0.40 – 0.55 m/s in the bottom drains. Too fast and debris brakes up. Too slow and debris / fish poop gets stuck in the plumbing and requires frequent flushing. Let me know if you need any of this translated into flow rates per hour or minute.

        Once you have the pond designed, only then design filtration and decide on circulation pumps.

        Good luck with the pond build.
        Jacques
        I agree with you with regards to avoiding deadspots and this is where architect that design ponds usually know nothing of. The number of bottom drains per area is useful information but connecting several bottom drains in a series will result in uneven suction.

        While suction pressure is important I do not agree that waste can get trapped inside the bottom drain. If you have the ability to flush the bottom drains by using the gravity of the depth of the pond then all waste can be flushed out even if pump suction ia weak. Smaller pumps can be compensated with smaller pipe diameter also.

        Concrete ponds can be sealed with alkalinity rising either by polyurea, fiberglass or marine epoxy coatings.
        Leaks can be avoided by building concrete ponds in such a manner than it can handle a moving water load while considering possible movement of the ground and applying waterproofing chemicals on concrete builds.

        Is current returns necessary? No.

        Comment

        • #19

          I've said it so often.... If I was building a new pond, I would first build a hill and build the pond on top. (I live where it's flat....an elevation a foot high is a big hill. ) If I could flush away wastewater without using pumps, maintenance would be so much easier! And, it would make it much easier to use sieves and techniques requiring constant discharge of wastes/water. I would also have a discharge area where wastes/water could be disposed without going into the garden. (My set-up prevents me from easily incorporating a water softener due to brine waste disposal problems, and gobs of algae glarf do not look better when lying next to a blooming iris.) When designing we tend to pay less attention to disposal of waste/water than to filtration and the pond itself. Later, when maintaining the pond, it's mostly about disposal.

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          • #20

            The worst thing in pond is lack of bottom drains or issue on them, that will force to use pump feed filters and everything will turn to heal.

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            • #21

              issue on them,
              They are PVC surrounded by concrete. How do you have an issue with a drain with an anti vortex cover? The bigger risk is if you have a slow flow rate on the pipe from the drain sump to the filter pit....the pipe becomes a settlement chamber. That is bad karma, bad joss. With a 4" 110mm pipe, keep the flow rate in the 4000gph rate at a minimum....more is better.
              Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

              Comment

              • #22

                Originally posted by MCA View Post
                They are PVC surrounded by concrete. How do you have an issue with a drain with an anti vortex cover? The bigger risk is if you have a slow flow rate on the pipe from the drain sump to the filter pit....the pipe becomes a settlement chamber. That is bad karma, bad joss. With a 4" 110mm pipe, keep the flow rate in the 4000gph rate at a minimum....more is better.
                A pond with a drain with an anti vortex cover and proper flow rate can still have issues if not designed properly.

                Comment

                • #23

                  Originally posted by ricshaw View Post
                  A pond with a drain with an anti vortex cover and proper flow rate can still have issues if not designed properly.
                  Everything even in best quality with wrong or weak design will fall in problem. I have experienced several times.

                  Comment

                  • #24

                    So are talking about design, components used, or implementation/installation? All those are very different things.......that all have to come together to make an effective and relatively trouble SYSTEM.
                    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

                    Comment

                    • #25

                      Originally posted by MCA View Post
                      With a 4" 110mm pipe, keep the flow rate in the 4000gph rate at a minimum....more is better.
                      I agree with the suggested flow rates.

                      4000 GPH in 110mm pipe = 0.44 m/s
                      4000 GPH in 4" pipe = 0.52 m/s.

                      Comment

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