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Changing Showa

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  • Changing Showa

    Here is a Showa I purchased as Tosai in Feb. 2001 at the Phoenix show. The second picture was taken a few days ago. The first picture maybe a year ago. What I would normally expect for a koi with sumi, is for the sumi to come on in the Winter and diminish in the Summer. I don't like the way this fish is developing at 22 inches. The hi is breaking up and she has at least temporarly lost her head sumi.

    Mike Pfeffer
    Mike Pfeffer
    Northern Midwest ZNA show
    June 19 - 20, 2010
    Season's Garden Nursery
    Fishers, IN
  • #2

    MikeP: I'd not give up on her. There is a lot of sumi underneath and looks to me that it is going to give you a fine pattern when it comes up. I cannot tell if the hi is really breaking up, or if it is just stretched a bit from growing. In some areas, looks to me that it has consolidated. Pics can be difficult to interpret. But, I'll stick my neck out ... I'd guess that she is going to take a couple more years and then will be a beauty. I really like the hi pattern and clean way it is centered. Know which breeder? Looks to me that she is from one of the "old-line" of kindai showa. (Reminds me of pics I've seen in Rinko from late '80s, early 90's.) If so, she will not have the magoi blood Sakai re-introduced, but heavy on the kohaku/sanke blood from one of the older lines? Dick Benbow advised me some time back that I had to wait 8 years to know if a showa was going to turn out as desired. Not sure about that [ :roll: ], but I was reading an article from a dozen years or more ago that said about the same thing in regard to kindai showa. Some were developed from the original Torazo sanke being crossed in, and those were known for taking 5+ years for the sumi to emerge in fixed locations. Not much in all that to hold onto, but I'd hold onto that fish.

    Comment

    • #3

      One thing I was wondering about sometimes the hi is orange and rarely deep red some fish have a mix of the two this one seems quite orange so is red more desirable or what?
      The perfect koi is always one purchase or spawning away!

      Comment

      • #4

        If the mix of red and orange is in the form of a red ribbon down the center of the orange scale this is a good thing as it is the color of the koi to come.

        Comment

        • #5

          Breeder

          Mike-

          The breeder is Norihiro Nagata of Kinsuien Yorijo in Kyuushuu prefecture. Mr. Nagata is a good friend of Ben Polanski(Laguna Koi Farms); grew up with Kawakami(Torazo). Attends the LA and San Diego shows each year.

          Mike Pfeffer
          Mike Pfeffer
          Northern Midwest ZNA show
          June 19 - 20, 2010
          Season's Garden Nursery
          Fishers, IN

          Comment

          • #6

            coupla thoughts on the showa. Red is always the most difficult color to get "right" . The depth of the beni is key. I don't see it in the photos. I do see scaloping red edges which makes me nervous. this koi may have faired better in a climate less conducive to growth. when it comes to showa I like black that is stable and does not fluctuate with temperature.
            however just the opposite with sanke during thier first 3-4 years. I have seen matsunosuke bloodline sanke that shows a shoulder patch at tosai,
            it disappears as nisai, you sell it all discouraged at sansai and you see it again several years later with the shoulder patch and others in perfect condition up and affixed. bottom line as Mike suggested is to hang on to the koi and allow it to develop. no one but the breeder knows what to expect from thier bloodline. monitor your PH and try to establish a stable range in the mid 7's. You may want to back off pushing growth with high temps and high protein pellets.
            Dick Benbow

            Comment

            • #7

              New home

              Dick-

              Thanks for your comments. I'm going to find this girl a new home as I don't think this koi pocesses quality beni. I would keep the koi if the sumi was the only variable even if it was unpredictable but the beni quality just isn't there.

              Mike
              Mike Pfeffer
              Northern Midwest ZNA show
              June 19 - 20, 2010
              Season's Garden Nursery
              Fishers, IN

              Comment

              • #8

                Grew up with Kawakami? Something had me thinking Torazo ... I know I read something somewhere about the hi on the old original "tiger sanke" that gave the Torazo name, and there was something different about it. The thing everybody comments on was that it's sumi was not blocks of black like in bekko, but was more like stripes of black. But there was also something about the hi. Can't recall what, though. Do you know what I'm trying to remember? Somebody lurking on this board must. (Please speak up!!)

                Before you get rid of her, see if you have something around about the "tiger sanke" & its growth characteristics. I just have a feeling that her bloodline has the original Torazo sanke in it to get it kindai, and that may give a hint to what is happening with the hi. She might not be what you want, but she also may not be what you see.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Tiger Sanke

                  Mike-

                  Something to consider. I don't have the information you are seeking. I cut my koi numbers down pretty ruthlessly due to the size of my pond.

                  Are you going to the All Florida Show. See you there.

                  Mike Pfeffer
                  Mike Pfeffer
                  Northern Midwest ZNA show
                  June 19 - 20, 2010
                  Season's Garden Nursery
                  Fishers, IN

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    water params

                    Hi Mike,

                    What is your KH like? What is it at the source and do you adjust it for the pond? I know mine is extremely hard up here. I've measured it at 295ppm from the tap before but it typically is in the 140-180 range in the pond. I would think your water favors the sumi too.

                    Maybe I can have a look at your fish sometime if you decide to get rid of it.


                    Kevin
                    Kevin McGuire

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Hi Dick,

                      Read your comments with interest. I have a 24" male Matsunosuke Sanke whose shoulder sumi started receding last fall. Would be nice to see it return to where it was.

                      Kevin
                      Kevin McGuire

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Hi Dick,

                        Read your comments with interest. I have a 24" male Matsunosuke Sanke whose shoulder sumi started receding last fall. Would be nice to see it return to where it was.

                        Kevin
                        Kevin McGuire

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          KH and hardness

                          Kevin-

                          I know KH and hardness are of concern but my KH runs around 120 not that I check it very often. What I really go by is the vast majority of my collection looks fine with good skin quality. And I have other fish that I've owned for as long as 2.5 years and they look good. I don't have the luxury of treating a single fish special. I read a post by Art Lempke where he said some hobbyist tend to gravitate toward one particular breeder and it may be that certain breeders fish perform well in one's water. I'm gravitating to Marudo, at least for Kohaku. I'll find out how some of his other fish do for me next October.

                          Mike

                          Mike
                          Mike Pfeffer
                          Northern Midwest ZNA show
                          June 19 - 20, 2010
                          Season's Garden Nursery
                          Fishers, IN

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            MikeP: You'll be at AFKAPS? Great! I'm looking forward to meeting a Louisville koi fanatic. I've not been back since December 1976. Friday night I'll buy a round of bourbon for all who frequent this board in honor of you making such a long journey. If we get started early enough, it will put everyone in the perfect frame of reference for JR to take the lead on the panel.

                            On a more serious note, if you have to reduce your pond population, why not bring one of those goshiki down with you? I'd be happy to help out a fellow Kentuckian. :lol:

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              All Florida

                              Mike-

                              I'm flying in so no way to bring fish. Look forward to the bourbon shot, being from Kentucky and all.

                              Mike Pfeffer
                              Mike Pfeffer
                              Northern Midwest ZNA show
                              June 19 - 20, 2010
                              Season's Garden Nursery
                              Fishers, IN

                              Comment

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