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A Suminagashi - anyone familiar with this variety

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  • A Suminagashi - anyone familiar with this variety

    Considering this 16 inch female suminagashi as a new addition to the fold. Anyone familiar with this variety. I"ve been researching the books and one description equates it to a kanoko matsukawabake. Since matsukawabake change I'm assuming the suminagashi does not - or at least not as much. One the dappling or kanoko appears does it tend to stay that way. Anyone know - JR?
    Any thought - unique and unusual koi - thought I would share.
  • #2

    Hi Dan, Happy Easter! The more the years roll by , the more I find myself interested in the entire complex of karasugoi.

    the hajiro, the matsukawabake, the hagishiro, the yotsushiro and the suminagashi . Then when you change from scaled to doitsu you bring in kumonryu, beni kumonryu and then off to the metallic forms of kumonryu and beni kumonryu. Quite a list.

    I know exactly what you mean when you say kanoko. But technically, a Suminagashi is a black fish with all ( or most) scales reticulated in white. This taken as a full pattern gives a very distinct look - a vignette pattern over the entire fish.
    Matsukawabake , on the other hand, is a changable black and white pattern. And many specimens show a change either seasonally or simple over time. If you study one closely you can see a pattern within the skin and then potential to reverse color in time. This trait is inherited in kumonryu and they are well know to change color based on water temperature, pH and water hardness. Most matsukawabake will have solid areas of black and then the interplay of black and white. Whereas the suminagashi will be a well defined reticulation- a more complete pattern really. You will also notice that most lines of matsukawabake have a tendency to have solid black markings and bands in the head, nose and cheek area. JR

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    • #3

      JR - Happy Easter to you also. Thanks for the information. Based on the fact it's a black koi with most scales reticulated in white, can one envision more black coming up on a young fish as this one - being only 16 inches and female. Also because there appears to be more underlying black on the sides of the upper shoulder area as well as directly in front of the dorsal - fully realizing water parameters will affect it.
      Have you seen any suminagashi's in your travels, and if so would you consider this koi to be a good representative example -quality wise.
      Thanks again. May the Easter Bunny be good to you!

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      • #4

        Honestly Dan, the fish looks a little more like a young matsukawabaki to me? I'll see if I can get a picture of a sumi from one of the All Japan books- stay tuned. JR

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        • #5

          JR - I'll stay tuned in to see if you find as picture. Fish is in Japan and breeder/broker says it's a suminagashi so I'm only going by what I know. Just for the heck of it, if it does turn out to be a matsukawabake instead of a suminagashi how does it stack up as far as a young female matsukawabake is concerned. Thanks again.

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          • #6

            JR - here is the other one of two I was looking at. Same breeder, sex, price and size. Thought it might help to see another.

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            • #7

              Hi Dan, I'm look'en! I should be able to find a good example. Maybe it would give a good mental picture to say that Suminagashi were once called Asagi suminagashi. Meaning the pattern of black was identical to the konjo asagi only black. The red area on asagi was more of a solid black on both suminagashi and matsukawabake and this is why we see those dark sumi markings at the gill just like in asagi.
              Your prospect has the look of asagi below the lateral line- no doubt. But none on the back area which is more typical of suminagashi. Matsukawabake is easier in that it is readily changable and never holds the kind of reticulation we are talking about.
              The fish itself is a lovely quality and clear and crisp in color. I like it but I can't ID it 100%! Time will certainly tell as the pattern will either finish as all asagi do or 'change' as all matsukawabake do!
              Here is a shot of a definite matsukawabake to think about until I get a shot of a killer suminagashi scanned and up. JR

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              • #8

                Hi Jim,

                Does this fit the bill?
                South East Koi Club

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                • #9

                  Bern - beautiful - is it your fish and if so how big is it now and what did it look like when it was younger. Thanks for joining in.

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                  • #10

                    Bingo ! Thanks Bern! JR

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                    • #11

                      Hi Dan,

                      No it's not mine. (I wish) I found the pic on a website some years ago and use it in a 'koi varieties' talk I give to koi clubs.

                      rgds BERN
                      South East Koi Club

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Bern, I think the plot thickens! If you look at the lineage and breeding scheme of the karasugoi you see that it is very likely that there is an inbetween possibility on many of these varieties.
                        On another subject, have you ever hear of a variety known as Hyakunen sakura?
                        JR

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                        • #13

                          Yeah, I remembered it was Hikarimoyo (BKKS) but couldn't remember any more than that so I had to look it up.

                          A Kikisui with Platinum dorsal scales.

                          Have you got a picture?

                          rgds BERN
                          South East Koi Club

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                          • #14

                            Wow , I'm impressed! Fukurin rich dorsal scales. JR

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                            • #15

                              Wow, Fukarin too, that's sounds incredible.

                              Got a picture??

                              rgds BERN
                              South East Koi Club

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