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Brady,Brett and Maurice you're opinions please !!!!

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  • Brady,Brett and Maurice you're opinions please !!!!

    Here are some pics of my fry at 4 months and two weeks old.
    We dragged the mud pond on Sunday and removed some more of the koi who eats the most and will never give a return on the investment.
    Please I only want you're honest opinion otherwise I will never learn.]
    You will see from the measurements on the bowl in some of the pics that most of the fry are between 25cm and 30cm in length.
    I did get quite a few who are loosing their red pigment.Mostly Sanke.
    Maybe grew them too fast. :roll:
    There are many more pics but lacks quality. Seems you can only post 5 at a time.
    More pics can be viewed here

    http://www.madaboutkoi.com/cgi-bin/d...rum=DCForumID9

    Jaco
    Jaco Vorster
    South Africa
  • #2

    Hey Jaco,
    Im not a koi breeder yet but those fish look pretty good for your first spawningm not to mention the fact that they are huge for your fish to grow 10 inches on average in 4 monthes is incredible.

    Best Regards,
    Alex Gibbs

    Comment

    • #3

      Hi Jaco!
      I ,like alex ;apologise for commenting, as I am not a professional breeder either
      but couldn't resist some comments till we await input from the three mentioned.
      Your beni comments about the sanke doesn't surprise me from what i see in the one you posted. also some concern that way for some of the kohakus. weill be interesting to see what the shiro does, sometimes the black grows and some time it condenses.
      I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of really. I might wonder on how high your PH is in your growth ponds? I think some of the kohakus and the shiro has some potential. sure hope you'll document things with photos like brett does so that you can show us some progression after a year
      remember these guys(breeders you mentioned) took time for the learning curve and some had access to some first hand instruction. keep the faith!
      I'm about a month away from starting this year's program. my kohaku,showa and shiro are ready. I just acquired a new sanke female
      that i'm excited about. 90% white with two wonderful sumi spots about the size of an american quarter and one piece on georgeous red on her shoulder about the size of a half dollar. to me sanke is the toughest so far.
      i will however be trying asagi this year for the first time, so we'll see.
      I wish you considerable good luck in your quest. nothing like a good challenge to keep you young!
      Dick Benbow

      Comment

      • #4

        Thanks Alex and Dick,
        My PH is runnung at 7.8 in mud pond.
        I appreciate youre reply and take notice of what you guys said.
        Dick The Sanke you are about to breed with sounds great.
        Please do the same and keep us informed too.
        I keep a large record of pics at the moment, but from the first cull to this one it is almost impossible to identify the small fry to the pics taken now.
        It should get easier from now on unless the koi goes white lol

        Jaco.
        Jaco Vorster
        South Africa

        Comment

        • #5

          Jaco

          Hi Jaco,

          Nice work over there! It's hard to be critical with these photos,... I can't see much detail from those shots. The bodys are a little thicker than I like to see in tosai, but every breeder is different,... with a different vision. Excellent effort, and something you should be proud of.

          Best Wishes,
          Brady Brandwood

          Comment

          • #6

            Hi Brady,
            Thanks for the good words.
            What do you mean about the body being too thick.
            Am I feeding too much?
            Will they grow slower or what, I am very curious.
            Thanks
            Jaco.
            Jaco Vorster
            South Africa

            Comment

            • #7

              Body shapes

              Hi Jaco,

              Sorry for the delay returning,... apparently the concept of only 24 hours in a day is not negotiable,... I looked into it,... It seems someone would have to slow down the rotation of the earth, or something complicated like that!

              With the body shapes,... the easiest way for me to express is to say that breeders have their own vision,... body shapes are affected (or manipulated) by lineage, by environment, by climate, and so on,... MY preference is to see a long lanky tosai/nisai,... a little like looking at a tall lanky Freshman basketball player with large hands and feet,... that grows into a handsome strong man at 21 years of age,... comparatively, a Koi that begins to fill out after the 3rd year.

              Your vision for your Koi may be very different,... no one can say what is right or wrong.

              Nice work, I know the hours and hours of hard work, the financial commitment, and the commitment of time, and personal attention required.

              Best Wishes,
              Brady

              Comment

              • #8

                Brady: You are being a bit too reticent. Truly would like to better understand what you are looking for and what you are seeing here. What I'm focusing on is the high backbone ridge and shoulder hump on some of these tosai & kind of snubby nose length. Reminds me of ones I've seen from Matsunosuke parents. So, my guess [and I admit it is maybe wishful thinking] is fish that will have a lack of proportion until 2-3 years old and then start looking "right" as the bodies lengthen. Maybe in person I'd have a different feeling about them, but I'd be assuming likelihood of strong built bodies. The colors I can't say anything about. Pigment in tosai is something I'm always uncomfortable predicting and photos can be misleading. The one kohaku-type that looks much brighter red bothers me in so young & fast growing a fish. The duller orange of the others seems preferable. The shiro utsuri seems to have too much sumi for so young a fish, but some shiros seem to have the sumi tighten & others seem to have it expand. ... which just leaves scared of tosai shiros! [but have to say I like this one.] I would be concerned about the first one [sanke type] because the peduncle area seems skinny in comparison to the chest/belly area. I'm not comfortable speculating on the others' peduncle areas. Based on these rambling thoughts, if I was going to buy one, it would be either the shiro or the kohaku-type 3rd down from top. Don't like the kohaku-type's pattern, but my fear of tosai shiros would likely cause me to get it anyway ... because of the body, the hump, the prominent backbone and clarity of the color [albeit rather light]. And, because I've got no will power, I might break down & get the shiro as an experiment, simply because the pattern is attractive and bold.

                Hope you'll let me know the ways you disagree & points you notice that I've overlooked. All educational.

                Sorry Jaco if I hurt your feelings in any way. I'd be terribly proud if I ever raised such tosai as these!! So, don't take my critique the wrong way. If I had any confidence in my opinions on this I'd not be taking time to post. It's my lack of confidence in my judgment ... and knowing Brady's experience, that gets me to comment.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Thanks Brady and Mike.
                  I understand what you mean and the majority of thesre fry were from Matsonosuke parents. The Sanke spawning was not successfull at all with many loosing their Hi already. Maby change the male next time.
                  Mike my feelings are not hurt, on the contrary I enjoy all the comments and suggestions.
                  I promise to keep you updated after our Winter has passed .
                  Thanks again
                  jaco
                  Jaco Vorster
                  South Africa

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Body shapes,...

                    Hi Mike,

                    The analogy of the lanky freshman basketball player really is where my view is. I really don't know enough about what Jaco is breeding from, his climate, his growing conditions, or his vision to comment on or compare his tosai to others, except to say that a couple appear thick for the size and age,... but again, I have no details on the growing conditions. What I like to see in tosai ideally is a long slim body, large pecks, and a large mouth/head. My opinion is actually opposite 180 of what you described - I feel that thick compact looking tosai will grow into pigeon chested short thick adult Koi. I prefer to see a young Koi with exaggerated pecks and bone structure features that will grow into a sleek stout strong long adult Koi. Koi are so pliable,... so much can be changed or manipulated by the keeper,... sometimes purposefully, and sometimes unintentionally, but that is a subject that we can chat on for days and days. The "loose" body shape, and poor coloration of Koi grown in tropical climates is just one quick example.

                    Though some may find this offensive, the analagy I like to use to express my thoughts on Koi body shape is this: We men all like to see a woman with a 38 D breastline, 24" waist, and 36" hipline, a great proportion/ratio showing beautiful curves,... BUT, remember the girl that had those measurements,... but in the 7th grade??? Have you seen her lately??? Now, remember the girl in the 7th grade that was built like a pencil??? Have you seen her lately??? My feeling is a Koi's body should blossom late, and look wonderful for many years.

                    Best Wishes,
                    Brady Brandwood

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Hi Brady,

                      I am over 2 meters tall and weigh 150kg.My son , now two years old , looks exactly like me just smaller. My point being for him to grow as big as I am he needs to be big from birth. You cannot build a hotel on a house foundation. Looking at Mamotaro tosia you see big strong bodies with broad shoulders at 6 months old aready. Most of these fish grow to over 80cm in length in a short space of time. How big do you estimate the koi in you're picture would become?

                      I am not saying I am right and you are wrong , like you said every breeder has different opinions on what he likes his fish to look like.
                      I like mine big and female hopefully.
                      Only time will tell what my fry will turn into and my expectations are very high.
                      I do not have any previous experience in breeding and respect you're many years of experience and the help and opinions you give me. I am only doing this as an extention of my hobby and do not make a living out of it so I can afford to take a chance on these fry.
                      Our Winter is almost here and the temps in the ponds will drop to between 10 and 12c during winter and should halt their growth some and hopefully the color will have time to thicken.

                      Thanks again

                      Jaco
                      Jaco Vorster
                      South Africa

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Body shapes

                        Hi Jaco,

                        I was mentioning proportions, and used the terms "long and lean" to describe size. The Showa tosai in the pic is a 10" tosai that I expect would reach 32" as an adult Koi with proper continual care over the next 8 years. By proportions I mean sizes of pecks, other fins, head, mouth, shoulders, the distance between the head and the dorsal fin, the distance between dorsal fin and tail.

                        If we look at humans closely we begin to see that there are a few specific body "types" at the core,... this is also true of Koi, there are a few specific frame "types" that look very distinct as tosai, and as adult Koi. If we look at the distance between the shoulder and the dorsal fin alone, we can start to pick these body types out. Try this comparison,... line up photos of several tosai, a Momotaro jumbo tosai, other breeder's tosai, and compare the distance from the shoulder to dorsal fin,... then look at the Koi's noses. Not so much to do with size, but rather proportions. Also, if we skip from Kohaku, to Sanke, to Shiro Utsuri, to Yamabuki Ogon we see how these differing body types can come into play in the varying varieties.

                        What is the length of the Sanke and the Shiro Utsuri in your pics?

                        Best Wishes,
                        Brady Brandwood

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Hi Brady,

                          I now understand what you are saying. Because this was my first attempt the outcome or predictions would only be proven right or wrong once these fish reach about 2 years of age. I see from you're pic of the Showa that it does have a very long body and when it eventually fills out will be something very special. You do not have any new pics of this Showa?

                          The Shiro in the pic measured 21cm and the Sanke 23cm.
                          Below I have posted three more pics of my fry and you can clearly see the difference in body shape and style of body.
                          First is a Kohaku measuring 24cm and has more the body you prefer.
                          Second is a pic of a Kigoi measuring 31cm Diff body, almost too fat
                          Third is the biggest fry ( Kohaku) measuring 35cm and looks better and stronger.

                          Large pic of the fry at two months old
                          I now see big is not always better.
                          Thanks
                          Jaco
                          Jaco Vorster
                          South Africa

                          Comment

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