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  • please comment on my showa

    im back! remember I killed my previous ISA showa (the one you guys said had weak beni)

    please comment on this one

    14cm
    Marudoh

  • #2

    Aragorn: Such a small fellow. It is very difficult to comment at that size, particularly since color does not always come true in photos. The red seems too deep for so young a koi, if the photo is accurate. I think you need to give it an easy winter and not try to push the growth too much. Reminds me of one that grew too rapidly... not good for the pigment. Let's see how it looks at 10".

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    • #3

      Mike, as a serious student of showa what is your take on what i call "scratchy" black
      Dick Benbow

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      • #4

        Your little guy's sumi looks like it can go dark all over the body... Too early to tell at this point, but I'm almost certain that sumi will go really black all over.....


        Adreamer2
        Adreamer2,
        gmcfayden,
        N2Koi
        -----------
        Alas, I have found my feat.. and am about to run!

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        • #5

          Dick, I'm thinking this is mainly "baby Sumi" that will fade. It seems to be primarily in the top layer of skin, like a smokey cloud, rather than coming up from the deeper layers of skin. There are a couple of areas that seem to be deeper Sumi coloring individual areas of some scales an inky color. If the photo is accurate on that, I'd expect the small specks of Sumi to fill-in the scales in the future. Tosai Showa, especially a little fellow like this, are so hard to predict. The breeder will know whether the Sumi is coming or going w/o giving it a thought, and be right most of the time. But for a person to figure it out w/o knowing how offspring from the pairing develop is a tough call. So, if I was considering buying this tosai, I'd try to ignore the Sumi and "see" the Hi and Hi pattern alone. If that passed muster, then I'd try to decide if the bit of Sumi that looks inky on a couple of scales is good quality or just appearing to be good because the rest is so thin in comparison... it plays tricks on the eye.

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          • #6

            wow, there's such a thing as baby sumi? (at least that's good news)

            for what it's worth, both pectorals have motoguro

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            • #7

              Are these an example of what you are talking about?

              Should I expect the buried bluish Sumi above the pec's to rise and the surface Sumi on the sides of the top fin to disappear? This is all very interesting to me as I am trying to learn expectations for Showa and Sanke.
              BTW, this Koi is app. 12-13cm
              (sorry about the mediocre pic quality )

              Originally posted by MikeM
              Dick, I'm thinking this is mainly "baby Sumi" that will fade. It seems to be primarily in the top layer of skin, like a smokey cloud, rather than coming up from the deeper layers of skin. There are a couple of areas that seem to be deeper Sumi coloring individual areas of some scales an inky color. If the photo is accurate on that, I'd expect the small specks of Sumi to fill-in the scales in the future. Tosai Showa, especially a little fellow like this, are so hard to predict. The breeder will know whether the Sumi is coming or going w/o giving it a thought, and be right most of the time. But for a person to figure it out w/o knowing how offspring from the pairing develop is a tough call. So, if I was considering buying this tosai, I'd try to ignore the Sumi and "see" the Hi and Hi pattern alone. If that passed muster, then I'd try to decide if the bit of Sumi that looks inky on a couple of scales is good quality or just appearing to be good because the rest is so thin in comparison... it plays tricks on the eye.
              Attached Files
              Larry Iles
              Oklahoma

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              • #8

                A somewhat clearer pic

                Hopefully this one turned out better.
                Attached Files
                Larry Iles
                Oklahoma

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                • #9

                  LOL! Dick, look what trouble you've gotten me into. ... Folks: Recall that Dick called me a "student". A very accurate term! I'm a learner...And, I've got a lot to learn!

                  Aragorn: Yes, there is temporary Sumi that shows up in baby koi. It is probably an adaptation from the wild... a type of protective camouflage for youngsters, not unlike the way black and gray tones on very young comet goldfish will fade away revealing a standard orange-red goldfish. Check the thread I started called "A Rainbow of Showa", and look at the one I call "Pumpkin". There is absolutely no resemblance between her nearly black face in Fall '04 and her face in Fall '05.

                  PapaBear, I'd really like to see a photo from one month earlier to compare and see what direction things are going, but even then I'd likely not be able to give you reliable advice. First, the dark blotches next to the dorsal "feel" like permanent Sumi to me. I expect it will consolidate and the edges become more defined. But, the pic is not very good for really saying. On the other hand, the darker "wash" of sumi that looks like it was lightly brushed on along each side of the dorsal fin has the look of temporary Sumi fading away. The Hi will become more pure as that "over wash" of Sumi disappears. The deep Sumi patch will then stand out even more...I think.

                  The blue-gray area is the more interesting part, because I've seen areas like that develop in several ways. It is not what I call "baby Sumi", which is superficial. It is Sumi deep in the skin layers. I've seen fish where the area becomes white by the time the fish is nisai, only to have the Sumi rise up at age 4 or 5 and cover everything. Sometimes the area just stays white ... but maybe it returns at age 7? (LOL) [I've not kept any long enough to say from personal experience.] In other fish it is Sumi forming now and beginning to "rise" to the surface; and in still others true Kage shadows are formed, which may be permanent or very slowly become consolidated Sumi. I'd like to think you have some Kage there, just because it would be very attractive if it turned out that way. I kinda feel there is a chance of staying Kage because of the way the Sumi fills the areas under the scales... gives an impression similar to young Asagi. But, this is a very young Showa. I really think you have to be familiar with offspring from the pairing that produced it to do much more than guess at that size and age.

                  I enjoy guessing about little Showa because whatever happens, I learn from it. I hope you keep that little thing and post a pic in Spring when ready to go back in the summer pond. Then we can see how the winter treated it. Then more pics at the end of summer as nisai, which is when we can really get an idea of what is happening.
                  Last edited by MikeM; 12-28-2005, 12:37 PM. Reason: left out sentence

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                  • #10

                    This Pic is about 2 months old

                    http://koi-bito.com/forum/attachment...achmentid=3624

                    That is the best picture of this one I have from earlier this year, but it doesn't really show the surface Sumi along the top all that well. (my photography skills aren't what they used to be ) Not much to get a comparison from. From my own observation every aspect seems to be coming along nicely. I'm especially pleased with the nice even "hi saddle" at the midsection and the hi slashes behind the gills on both sides. But then again I'm more than a little bit prejudiced .

                    This is the first spawn I've had from this pairing. Father is my avatar pic and mother is Sanke with mediocre hi (persimmon color) but nicely laquered Sumi. Since both parents have very inky Sumi I'm hoping their offspring will follow suit.
                    Larry Iles
                    Oklahoma

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Larry (PapaBear): Now I understand that is not a Showa, but a Sanke. My apologies for assuming something! It changes everything.

                      Forget what I said about Kage Sumi, etc. Sanke Sumi behaves very differently, which is part of what makes it so curious as more Sanke blood gets bred into Showa. But, anyway, what you see is typical fading of Sumi in a very young Sanke... baby Sumi like in Showa, but more so. No question whether it is coming or going at this point, it is going. The question is where and how it returns. The dark Sumi patch by the dorsal is, I believe, permanent Sumi that will consolidate, as I said above.

                      The blue-gray area is showing Sumi in the deeper layers of skin, but in Sanke it is most common for it to turn white, Sumi may arise in the future, but not necessarily. Sanke is a white-based fish. The white will thicken. The melanin deep in the dermis usually does not "stick". It diffuses, and if it arises in the future, it most likely will be in typical Sanke patches/spots, not in the bands of Utsuri-based fish. Showa being a black-based fish, the melanin is less likely to "leak" out of the chromatophores, but will remain in the dermal layers. The Kage shadow can occur. In Sanke the same Kage effect is not seen in adult fish, except to the extent a bit of Sumi is under the skin adjacent to a Sumi patch. It has to do with the different structure of chromatophores and how they are dispersed in the skin.

                      Knowing this is Sanke, the area of the blue-gray is fascinating because you can see two sorts of "fading" occuring at the same time. Immediately in front of the dorsal fin and trailing along the side of it is superficial Sumi in the top skin layer. It is fading, but part of it lays over the deep gray-blue Sumi (also fading, but in a different way). If you look carefully, you will realize that you are looking at Sumi on two different planes of the skin...like high cirrus clouds passing over lower cummulus clouds. The superficial color cells containing melanin in very young fish simply cease to function, gradually leaving no Sumi to be seen. The deep color cells are continuing to function in the deeper layers of skin, but not in the top layers. ....We tend to think of color and pigment as solids, because we are used to the idea of pigment in paint; but the skin of koi is translucent, and perhaps better thought of as layers of colored glass overlying one another. *** I don't think I said that very well. LOL

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                      • #12

                        I thought you said it very well

                        Thanks for the good explantation. You are right about the layering as it is clearly evident in person moreso than in the pix. This particular Koi has been a great learning experience since it was only 1" long and I'm looking forward to seeing what else it has to teach me. Thanks for helping me along in the process.
                        Larry Iles
                        Oklahoma

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                        • #13

                          jan 2006 and may 2012

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