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Culling questions, kohaku and shiro utsuri

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  • Culling questions, kohaku and shiro utsuri

    Many culling questions; how early, how often, what for?

    I have a friend who has three sets of fry and eggs in the breeding pond. The guilty parties were:

    1 week ago: a female showa and a male doitsu ochiba
    4 days ago: three kohakus; one male, two females -- very high quality
    yesterday: two Omosako shiro utsuri

    So the showa/ochiba 'junk' fry are already swimming around and are really difficult to see. A bunch of black fish.

    The kohaku fry should show up today or tomorrow.

    In a few more days the shiro utsuri fry show.

    Let's assume that the showa/ochiba fry are junk and not worth saving in any way.

    When can we start culling and what should we look for? I'm guessing that we start culling deformities and black fish in a couple of weeks. After that, what is the routine? Can we cull sooner?
  • #2

    Hi Jason!
    Look right now in your showa spawn for black babies and get rid of everything else. after the babies get a coupla inches bigger look for
    deformities. then in the fall cull for pattern.

    With the kohaku wait one month and discard the solid red and white ones. when I say red they probably will vary from yellow to orange. but get rid of the solid colored ones. then each month they should grow another inch and you cull by pattern only. by the time fall comes you look for density of the beni. remember a heavy pattern on a tosai is not pretty but a pretty one on a tosai becomes underwhelming as it grows.

    when the shiros are three days old select just the black fry. then after a coupla months look for deformities especially in the head shape. there is so much to learn about culling these koi. there are lots of different sumi types. some show right away some are shaded and fill in later. you might want to select patterns that appeal to you that are full up, partial submerged etc and follow them thru and take notes/photos. this will help in furthur slections from this pair.

    I just sold our #1 nissai shiro we had been keeping as stealth, hidden away. I could tell when it was three inches it was #1. the white skin tone, what black was showing was blue-black. the pecs were solid black and then as it aged it crawled back to next to nothing. this spring the pecs went solid black again and had just started crawling black. It had about one third black pattern the rest white. the black is beginning to fill in now to about 40%.

    I hope you'll take photos and share your thoughts and experiences. Good luck!!
    Dick Benbow

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    • #3

      Ahhhh nuts!

      In a week we should start tossing out everything but the black ones EXCEPT for the kohaku fry which need a month before some color appears.

      It looks like all culling will be delayed for a month then.

      Any suggestions on how to keep 1,000,000 fry alive in a 3000 gallon closed circuit pond? How about only 250,000? :lol:

      Comment

      • #4

        Jason,
        Don't get discouraged. it's just a part of the learning curve. If it was me
        I would count out 3,000 fry and work with them to start. that will keep your water quality in check for a while as they grow. when the time comes apply the other stuff i suggested and if you do get something decent, it won't be compromised! (health wise)
        Dick Benbow

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        • #5

          Bumped up for Dizzy.

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          • #6

            Thanks Mike

            Comment

            • #7

              Originally posted by JasonS View Post
              Ahhhh nuts!

              In a week we should start tossing out everything but the black ones EXCEPT for the kohaku fry which need a month before some color appears.

              It looks like all culling will be delayed for a month then.

              Any suggestions on how to keep 1,000,000 fry alive in a 3000 gallon closed circuit pond? How about only 250,000? :lol:
              I've not seen a wild spawn hold up that well in numbers over the months as even saving the so-called junk I wouldn't think you would have an unmanageable bunch in coming months. Lots of fun

              Comment

              • #8

                Jason welcome back!!!! Showa, select black fry...and Kohaku look for some sort of pattern...
                The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                Comment

                • #9

                  It was never made clear 2 1/2 years ago when this thread started that all of these fry got put into the same pond. Read Jason's post again. That's why he says "Nuts."

                  As for the show/ ochiba fry being junk...Not neccessarily, just hard to cull early. You'd get plenty of good fish among the culls, showas, ochibas, kohaks. Chagois, and soragois if you wanted to look at a lot of little bodies for confirmation. But it is not going to happen in a 3000g pond.

                  Mickey the windowman
                  Mickey the windowman, the world is a very big place.

                  Aquitori says Keokoi says "even sun shines on dogs ass..." so I say... Buy Ugly Early.

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Here are some pics of shiro development I took from some fry I was given, bred by Duncan Griffths.

                    This first picture was taken at about 3 months of age. A fine looking fish with deep sumi and a great pattern.




                    Here is now the same fish at one year. The sumi has all sunk down deep.I had big questions as to how this fish would go further.


                    Now 6 months down the line it is again a whole different fish with sumi starting to re-emerge.



                    B.Scott



                    .
                    Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      B.Scott,
                      If could you give us the lengths at the different ages?
                      Thanks,
                      Mitch

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Mitch, the length of the fish is somewhat a moot point. This fish is smaller than any fish I would ever consider buying, it has never been in a mud pond and has been fed normal koi feed with the rexception of the special high protien food it was given in the first 2 months. It is not large as a result. The only reason I keep this fish is as an educational lesson in development. When I have learned what i can it will be given away to some ponder who has not problem with it's small size.
                        In the first picture it's about 4 cm. At this point I would guess it is between 20 and 25 cm.

                        B.Scott
                        Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          B.Scott,
                          I agree the pattern was great in the first picture. Kept us posted as to how it comes back. I have some koi that were brought up under similar circumstances and I understand what you are saying about the growth. It's very interesting how the sumi comes and goes. Thanks for sharing.
                          Mitch

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                          • #14

                            kohaku koi fry

                            Hi guys, my question is I have baby kohaku and was wondering if on the head it looks maybe like the fishes brain. It lookes like two sides. The color is orange. Is it a tancho or basically turn into a pure white fish when mature, Thanks for your help in advance

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                            • #15

                              Well, my crystal ball seems to be broken which means you're gonna have a tough time getting any help without pictures...
                              Larry Iles
                              Oklahoma

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