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Revisiting Conformation Part 1.....

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  • Revisiting Conformation Part 1.....

    I wanted to bring this up again because alot of people had questions in regards to conformation. I will be using Duke's Kohak and a pic from Nancy Morales to explain a simple ratio guide to choosing good conformation on fish or developing good conformation on your fish. For anyone who wants to add something, please due so....

    In the diagram, I have pointed out the lenght of the head. If you ratio it out the lenght of the head 4 times will get you the ideal lenght.

    Also the lenght of the head, if you measure from gill plate to gill plate will get you the ideal shoulder proportions.

    please note: Duke's Kohak will show the girth is a bit down if you measure lenght of head to gill plate to gill plate. Other than that this Kohak shows excellent show conformation.
    Attached Files
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.
  • #2

    Very interesting, Aquitori, but just a few question:
    When you mesure de length of the had compare to his full lenght, do you take the full lenght from the end or the base of the tail ?
    It seems that should be the base of the tail in your pict ..
    What should be the widht of the had compare to his lenght ? Male and female ..
    Thanks
    Marco

    Comment

    • #3

      Sorry, I Forgot something
      What should be the hight of the fish (ex the largest vertical hight in my avatar) compare to the total lengt ?
      Hope you'll understand what I mean.
      Thanks again
      Marco

      Comment

      • #4

        remember a few years back when a friend dragged me off to a koi auction at the end of summer to help him pick out a shiro Utsuri from a bunch of israeli
        koi for sale. He found one with a killer pattern and nice shiroji and asked my opinion if that's the one to bid on. I said no because the body length was exactly 4 heads long and the hump behind the head was too exaggerated.

        Body length should be 4 1/2 heads....the 1/2 being very important.

        I don't think I've ever tried to measure or proportion the shoulder height measurement....it's one of those deals where after so many decades, i know it when I see it!
        Dick Benbow

        Comment

        • #5

          Originally posted by marco
          Very interesting, Aquitori, but just a few question:
          When you mesure de length of the had compare to his full lenght, do you take the full lenght from the end or the base of the tail ?
          It seems that should be the base of the tail in your pict ..
          What should be the widht of the had compare to his lenght ? Male and female ..
          Thanks
          Marco
          I know this isn't and exact science, but in "general" I use this formual when looking at koi at any size. The lenght of a koi to me is from the tip of the nose to the middle of meaty part of the tail.
          Attached Files
          The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

          Comment

          • #6

            Thanks for the pics and diagrams, aquitori. Actually seeing what you're explaining helps alot.

            Marie
            Marie

            http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/koi-gr...wout-form.html

            "Every artist dips his brush in his own soul, and
            paints his own nature into his pictures."
            --Henry Ward Beecher

            Comment

            • #7

              Please aqui..it is Length...TH

              Comment

              • #8

                Originally posted by luke frisbee
                Please aqui..it is Length...TH
                My bad Luke... That's what happens when you cut English class too much...
                The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Originally posted by luke frisbee
                  Please aqui..it is Length...TH
                  Length, length,length
                  Length, length,length
                  Length, length,length
                  Length, length,length
                  Length, length,length
                  It's not my fault, I copied Aquitory

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by dick benbow
                    remember a few years back when a friend dragged me off to a koi auction at the end of summer to help him pick out a shiro Utsuri from a bunch of israeli
                    koi for sale. He found one with a killer pattern and nice shiroji and asked my opinion if that's the one to bid on. I said no because the body length was exactly 4 heads long and the hump behind the head was too exaggerated.

                    Body length should be 4 1/2 heads....the 1/2 being very important.

                    I don't think I've ever tried to measure or proportion the shoulder height measurement....it's one of those deals where after so many decades, i know it when I see it!
                    Hi Dick,

                    Is this rule applicable to kois of all sizes (tosai, nisai, sansai etc) or will it be somewhat different in tosai since their body proportion is not really there yet as they are still developing.

                    Thanks in advance.
                    rudy

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Originally posted by marco
                      Length, length,length
                      Length, length,length
                      Length, length,length
                      Length, length,length
                      Length, length,length
                      It's not my fault, I copied Aquitory
                      Aqui! SEE what you did?

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Damn, sorry you guys....
                        The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Common Rationals re Confirmation... True or False?

                          Fat vs. Muscle
                          I don't believe the muscle theory behind confirmation. I think it is fat, not muscle. Maybe even hard fat at some point. You don't see salmon with bodies like 'conformationally excellent' koi. And salmon swim a hell of a lot farther than any koi. In fact, I can't recall any fish with such an unnatural build as an All Japan GC... not that I don't like it, just that I can't believe it's muscle. You would need a hell of a lot of steroids to 'pump you up' to that level.

                          Relatedly, does anyone know if fish/koi muscles atrophy, or are they like snakes? Or perhaps fish/koi have no fat, just 'meat reserves'? Honestly I would not enjoy dissecting a koi.


                          Depth Exercise Theory
                          While on this topic, there's another saying I don't trust -- that koi's in deep ponds get a lot of exercise (read: odome exercise) from swimming up/down due to the pressure resistance. I thought the primary controlling mechanism for fish was their air bladder. I would just think their air bladder muscles are getting exercised... come to think, I don't even know how fish air bladder work. We need an icthyologist (sp?). Like I don't see sperm whales with huge odome, and don't they dive thousands of feet? So yea, koi in ponds with depth get better confirmation, but is it depth exercise, or something else?

                          Will someone chime in here?

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            As to fat point, I concur. Beautiful to see, but not the healthiest way to grow a fish.

                            I believe depth is important, particularly when a pond does not otherwise provide good exercise. The tail is used to power the fish forward. Moving against a current, digging in the mud at the bottom of a mud pond for food ... these are the sort of activities that build muscle in the tail. Swimming downward can be similar.

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Nope, it's muscle...

                              Having cut up my share of koi for the KHA classes, wet labs, distressed owners, etc., the one thing that I point out is the location and quantity of fat as this is an indicator of the owner's feeding protocol. Unlike mammals, koi fat reserves are stored INSIDE the body cavity and do not intertwine with the muscle layers. Koi have a much different muscle texture and structure than mammals. So, you won't see a koi with a beer belly or dunlop-disease (unless it is a huge tumor).

                              Now, considering conformation (and I am the first to admit I could not pick out a champ fish to save my life), I can tell you that the dorsal muscle structure that the judges look at from the top down is SOLID muscle... not fat. A less than sleek abdominal structure could indicate some fat but honestly, there is just not much there even in the most over fed and poorly dieted koi.

                              About the swim bladder.. the purpose of this doc is maintain buoyancy and to move up and down in the water table. It is a complicated organ that essentially gets the gas for inflation from the blood stream. There is a tube and valve connected to the esophagus but that is used solely to expel gas. It is virtually impossible for a koi to gulp air and inflate the swim bladder that way despite what the goldfish masters think is a cause of flip over.

                              There is no question that a deeper pond will allow for greater exercise and better muscle tone/confirmation in koi. If we think about this, we know that koi are by nature bottom feeders and regardless of pond depth prefer to be on the bottom scrounging for food. It is we that teach them to come to the surface to feed and then watch them return to the bottom to live as carp again. This action is not controlled by the SB so much as it is a muscle driven activity. Where the SB comes into play is to allow it to stay on the bottom (or top ) comfortably and without added muscle work.

                              Hope this helps the discussion..

                              REC

                              Comment

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