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  • Goshiki

    What would one expect to get by breeding 2 goshiki together?

    By the same token, what fish are bred to get a goshiki in the first place?

    DL
  • #2

    An experienced breeder would have to answer your first question, but I expect that even with closely related Goshiki used as parents, the fry would be a mish-mash of ugly fish, with the hope of a few jewels to be found among them.

    Unlike Kohaku, which is a refined genetic variety, Goshiki are more a "color variety". That is, if a koi has a certain appearance, it will be called Goshiki, without regard to parentage. The traditional parents are Asagi and Kohaku, but if you read all you find on Goshiki, you will learn that many different combinations of koi have been used. All of the gosanke have been used, crossing them with Asagi (and apparently Soragoi on a few occasions), with offspring re-crossed back (usually) to Kohaku. There was a thread on this board with Goshiki photos posted showing wide variety. (Can't find the thread, so I guess it was before the board switched to the current format .) I find that the label "Goshiki" is put on any fish with a gray base color and overlaying red markings. If the markings are rust or yellowish, the fish will be labeled Kawarimono or Ochiba. (I'm expecting somebody to debate that remark!) But, the gray body color can occur only when young, become coal black with age and still be called Goshiki. Or, the base color can be very white, but showing the gray-blue scale pattern of Asagi thru the white, and it will be called Goshiki. Usually the hi will appear to float on top of the base color, giving a very bright effect. However, the rare ones that look like Kohaku with Asagi blue scales in the shiro do not have that effect.

    I think a person could fill a sizeable pond with Goshiki that look little like one another ... all the same color variety, but little genetic similarity. I f you check dealer listings, I think you will find that very few nice looking Goshiki are available at any particular time, and the list of breeders is very short compared to other varieties. It has to be frustrating for breeders to deal with a fish having such confused genetics.

    Comment

    • #3

      As mentioned, goshiki and goromo are originally the the product of asagi kohaku crosses. The basic fish should have asagi sumi and a kohaku pattern - but that covers an amazingly wide territory, since there are many kinds of asagi sumi. The sumi may or may not overlay the red. Some goshiki are goromo gone bad, since in goromo the sumi should only overlay the red (again there are different styles of goromo), and the white must be clear. If sumi emerges in the white, the goromo becomes a goshiki.

      Both goromo and goshiki can also be bred by backcrossing to either parent variety. For the most consistent results, you would want to breed back to the same kohaku and asagi bloodlines. Muddling together two varieties of asagi sumi with multiple kohaku blood lines probably limits the odds for success. Brett is the person to ask, since he once had a fabulous female goshiki-goromo as part of his breeding stock.

      I'm not clear on how soragoi fit into the picture - they are a blue-grey koi, but the color and scalation pattern are NOT the same as an asagi without hi (at least to my eyes). Some photos I've seen of goshiki seem to show more of the soragoi grey than an asagi sumi. All koi are color varieties when it comes to benching at a show, and some classes encompass a fairly broad range.

      I love blue koi (and kohaku), but prefer goromo to many goshiki. Finding good asagi is difficult, goshiki and goromo are a little more accessible. (Or at least my standards for gishiki-goromo aren't as high, yet.)
      Lynne in St. Louis

      Comment

      • #4

        Lynne: You are clearly correct that all koi are classified by color for show purposes. Ever think about how some varieties are the product of crossing two dissimilar types, while others are virtually always the product of breeding like parents? A Sanke crossing might produce a Kohaku, but Kohaku breeders focus on crossing Kohaku with Kohaku. This has now occurred for so many generations that few if any fry from a Kohaku spawn are not either red & white, or simply red or simply white. Asagi is another variety that will breed relatively true, as does Ogon. Cross two Kujacku, however, and the chances are you will have all sorts of strange fish. . . . and maybe a few Kujacku. Ochiba Shigure have been around a long time, but from what I've read many continue to be produced by crossing Chagoi and Soragoi, rather than breeding Ochiba to Ochiba.

        I think of Goshiki as still in the process of becoming a genetic variety. A lot of crossing of Kohaku with Goshiki to obtain a lighter base and more refined Hi. One of the consequences seems to be eliminating the fluorescent effect of the Hi over gray/black. I think we will see a new-style Goshiki that breeds relatively true in the next , oh, 30 years?

        ... I'd like to understand how the Hi of an old-style Goshiki differs from that of, say, an old-style Showa, to create that fluorescent effect which does not appear on other black & red fish ... My speculation is that the Hi pigment of Goshiki is overlaying the blue-gray/black pigment, creating greater intensity, rather than being over shiro as in most varieties or being displaced by sumi as in Hi Utsuri. But, my curiosity is not strong enough to go dissecting skin and scales under a microscope to find out. :wink:

        Comment

        • #5

          Hi Mike,

          My understanding is that original Goshiki and Goromo for that matter were natural sports of Kohaku. If you look at the old Koi Lineage chart it shows this. Original Goshiki are white skinned fish, very refined and only a few true lines exist, one of which is by a breeder called Miya in Niigata.
          Breeding is fraught with disappoinment and I understand that some of the breeding stock appear to be Kohaku.

          Other goshikis can be bred to order by the Asagi x Kohaku cross and some strange Kawari crosses. But these generally produce blue and black skinned goshiki, considered by the purists to be unrefined, but loved by the dealers because of a ready market abroad.

          rgds BERN

          Br
          South East Koi Club

          Comment

          • #6

            more questions....

            Bern - In Koi Kichi, Peter Waddington says that goshiki are from kohaku and asagi crosses but that Matsunosuke developed goromo from kohaku bloodlines. The two geneology charts I have on my computer are the ones posted by JR on the NI board. The older one is from Masamoto Kataoka in 1950-1960; unfortunately the varieties next to the spine are hard to read. Both charts show kohaku as offshoots of narumi asagi and goromo as being a parallel offshoot to the goromo (goshiki may be somewhat earlier). I think I've seen other charts or references that say kohaku were developed from hi-goi, so I'm not sure what is correct.

            I'm fairly new to goromo-gishiki appreciation so would love to learn more. My understanding is that white skin is what distinguishes goromo from goshiki, and to me that refinement is what makes goromo more attractive. I didn't know that there were white-skinned goshiki. (I don't care for the neon punch of some of the darker goshiki - the red is impressive, but not as appealing as persimon overlaid with blue robing.)

            Is the Miya you mention part of Miyatori Koi Farm? I found a Dutch (I think) website that talks about them. http://www.nishikigoinederland.nl/miyatora1.html I couldn't understand much, but it mentions a new variety, I think related to goshiki, called Shunrun. What are they?
            Lynne in St. Louis

            Comment

            • #7

              Kujaku

              So what are the crosses for kujaku?

              DL

              Comment

              • #8

                Bern & Lynne: Very interesting. I was not aware of the notion of Goshiki appearing among Kohaku fry. There are so many references to Kohaku x Asagi crosses in Japanese writings from 1960s and '70s, I had not thought beyond those.

                If you have the recent Nichirin with pics from the Indonesian show, compare the 75cm Ochiba (Kawarimono) with the 70cm Goshiki. The difference in base gray-blue color is slight. The nature of the color pattern and pigment is very different. If they were both labeled "Patterned Soragoi", it would seem logical.

                And, the following two pics: Both have been classified as Goshiki in shows. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find 5 colors on either one, or to arrive at a written description of Goshiki that would incorporate both, unless the focus is on the nature of the Hi and how it seems painted over the fish. If the one from the BKKS show did not have any Hi, what variety of koi would you say it was?

                I'm thinking that there a half dozen or types of koi that get labeled as Goshiki, which really have limited similarity to one another. For judging purposes, that makes sense. There is enough alike for it to be fair competition. But, do we mislead ourselves when we think of these fish as being one variety? ..... Wish somebody with a good photo of Sakai's grand Goshiki would post it, because that one is in a whole different league.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Ahhhhhh!!!!! Goshiki; a fav of mine...

                  Mike
                  Mike Pfeffer
                  Northern Midwest ZNA show
                  June 19 - 20, 2010
                  Season's Garden Nursery
                  Fishers, IN

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    MikeP: What a great face!

                    Query: Is this Hi Utsuri, Hi Showa or Goshiki? ops:

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      The belly looks like it might be white which would make it a showa, I believe. If not a white belly, hi utsuri.

                      Mike
                      Mike Pfeffer
                      Northern Midwest ZNA show
                      June 19 - 20, 2010
                      Season's Garden Nursery
                      Fishers, IN

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Hi

                        Both of the ones Mike posted are what I believe to be the Kawari based Goshiki i.e. black skinned. I noted once in a mail by JR that he considered the asagi crosses the epitome of good Goshiki but I can't relate that to the blue skinned examples that I generally see in Europe. However, I saw a version at a breeder called Hosokai that would rock anybodies boat and can only assume that it was the type and standard that JR was refering to. However, it could be said of the example that I saw that it had a white skin underlying the blue reticulation and the hi patches.

                        With reference to Asagi etc, most Nishikigoi originated from Asagi somewhere down the line. The reason I was given for the higher prized white skins was that this was progress, blue skins were seen as a retrograde step in terms of refinement.

                        The Miya I mentioned is known just by that name. I've not been able to find him in the Shinkokai book, but its not Miyatora or Miyaishi etc. I'll see if I can get more info on him.

                        As for a white skinned Goshiki here's one that I once owned and the root cause of any knowledge I possess about this variety.

                        rgds BERN
                        South East Koi Club

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Shunrai

                          Hi Lynne,

                          Don't be impressed by my knoweldge of Dutch, the reason that I know anything about this variety is that a UK Dealer bought them into this country a few years ago and he's only a couple of miles from me.

                          The Shunrai, (trans = Spring Thunder) were developed by Miyatora and were described as Sumi-Goromo-Goshiki. The specimens I saw (Photo) were too small to see any detail but all I could deduce was that they were Sumi Goromo with reticulation in the white.

                          When the ones bought into the UK grew to 15 inches or so they were very disappointing and messy. Therefore they haven't caught on over here.

                          rgds BERN
                          South East Koi Club

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            That is interesting to hear your comments about Miyatora`s Shunrai, Bern.

                            I picked up two such tosai from him this Spring. One is very nice with a great pattern of intense cherry burgandy hi like i have seen on no other fish. After I paid for that one, he threw in one other as a gift, it has the same colour, but not as rich and the pattern is messy.

                            I hope the good one does better than the ones you saw grow in Europe though - so far it continues to look promising. My other Miyatora fish, a san sai Red Kujaku sure is a stunner.

                            Back to Goshiki, ... I think another source for them is from Koromo spawns. I have seen goshiki that are the siblings of budo-goromo and sumi-goromo, ... basically similar fish that are classed goshiki because they have a grey pattern as opposed to the white base.

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              So, I'll add some more confusion to the mix. Dr. Kuroki writes that Goshiki was created in 1918 by crossing Asagi with Aka Bekko or Aka Sanshoku. He then states that: "Today, however, the Goshiki come from an Asagi X Taisho Sanshoku cross". ... No Kohaku originally.

                              Very little consistency.

                              Comment

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