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  • Food Glorious something or …..

    To the knowledgeable the Nishikigoi panel out in world.

    The last years we have been supplementing the feed to our Nishikigoi with lax filet and shrimp and earthworms when ever suitable and possible. Normally the to first will take up a high % during winter when they are indoors and easier to monitor. All are fresh and no treated.

    Is there any comment to such a practice?

    I wonder if there are any thought about using filet from pike or other white meat freshwater fish (these I can supply easily fresh all through the year).
    Tone - Truls -Petter
    Vogata NI
  • #2

    Koi like people can get bored with the same food served up constantly. I think the use of live food and different food peaks their interest and is a good practice for a better balanced diet. Because living food can carry health problems with them, I would hope the worms you use have been raised under your control and are purged. All the pike and shrimp need to be handled carefully. Since they are from salt water, things they carry should not be transferrable to a fresh water host. You might want to consider watermellon or lettuce
    which are popular in other places. When introducing new food remember sometimes it take the koi time to get used to it or aquire the taste.
    as in most things in life i think everything in MODERATION makes the most sense!
    Dick Benbow

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    • #3

      I read some where the Japanese mixed can tuna with paste food. So I think supplimenting any fish meat will work. I think if your koi are given an overal balanced diet they won't suffer.
      The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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      • #4

        Thanks for the replay.

        Just as an little notice. We consist of two different pond environment and we have never ever had any problem’s with this transfer problematic that are so vividly described on the net and in literature available. We have been with the described practise for over eight years now. It raises a question about the actual environment in witch its written or we are both extremely lucky?
        Her i woulden tink twice about drinking straight from any river (ecsept the last 1-2 miles of our biggest) and most lakes.

        Well have to modify a little the earthworms are just collected in our own garden where we have control with care and treatments.

        Our experience is that with an unbalanced diet mostly of the items previously described and at a for Nishikigoi low (way low) temperature we observe what for us looks like a blossom in almost every aspect (cant really say growth we feel, even if they don’t slow down as much as they used to and get less feed during the cold period).

        The question really was how far from an balanced diet are fish filet and its like when given raw and fresh?
        Tone - Truls -Petter
        Vogata NI

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        • #5

          Earthworms are an excellent food, if from an uncontaminated source.

          I recall reading that a diet mainly composed of white fish is very unbanced. Unlike consumption of a worm, the internal organs are not being consumed, so many of the minerals, carotene etc are lacking. It is a good source of protein as a diet supplement, or as a treat.

          As DickB said, everything in moderation.

          Comment

          • #6

            I read ALLOT, too.
            Too much...

            I wish we could get Toshio Sakai,... and Hisashi, from Marudo,Oomo, and maybe a few DOZEN other breeders from (Niigata) Japan to comment.

            I prefer not to hear comment from the newest " hero"(-shima)

            I see massive speculation from what I often refer to as the "Five Fish Wonderzzz"
            I would LOVE to see a diet regimen from these masters that have hundreds, if not thousands , or TENS of thousands of fish.

            It would be very interesting, and informative, to see the actual diet of the last 10 all Japan Grand Champs, Reserve Champs. etc.....

            Flame suit on... Eauuuuuhhhh Deahhhhhh Bloody, hillbilly yank... :evil: LOL

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            • #7

              Ok you asked for it. I'm getting Bil and he's gonna paste (food) you all! 8)
              B.Scott
              Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

              Comment

              • #8

                This is the latest recipe. So far it holds together better in the water and forms a nice malleable dough. It freezes well, if it is a bit sticky when thawed, just dust it with a bit of seaweed flour.

                For 1 Kg (approx)

                600g fish paste
                150g seaweed flour
                40g clay
                100g egg white powder. (aka albumin in the UK from carp bait sellers eg http://www.ccmoore.com/ £8 a kilo.)
                6 Vit B complex pills
                1/2 teaspoon of vit C powder
                clove or two of garlic if you like.

                The paste is easier now. You need a mincer tho, not a blender. A good food processor will also work, but it needs processing thoroughly. The grinder gives a finer paste.

                I cook up the herring or mackerel with no water, allow to cool and add an equal weight of prawn heads, put it thru the mincer and mix together. Gives a lovely thick paste. Bag it into 600g amounts and freeze. Obviously the base paste can be made in fairly large amounts if you wish. 5 kilos of herring plus 5 kilos of prawn heads will give enough paste to make 16 kilos of food.

                On the day, take 600g of the thawed fish paste, and stir in 100g of egg white powder until it goes to a sticky paste.
                Mix in six crushed vit B tabs and 1/4 teaspoon Vit C powder, followed by 25 ccs oil (codliver and safflower/sunflower 50:50 plus a bit of wheatgerm oil if you like).
                Then stir in 40g Refresh clay, and when that is mixed weigh out 150g seaweed flour. Add the flour and knead well to make a dough. Don't use all the seaweed flour if you don't need it, as too much will make the paste too dry and crumbly.

                Also feed some fresh veg like squash, sweet potatoes etc and some live food, prawn tails and mussels. For squash or pumpkin, I skin it and cube it into suitable sizes, drop it into boiling water , bring to the boil and simmer for about 3 - 4 minutes, less for small cubes, more for big. I then put it immediately into cold water to stop it cooking. I don't bother skinning sweet potatoes.

                I feed a kilo of this a day, together with a kilo of prawn tails (shrimp), crab sticks and sweet potatoes.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Hello again

                  Okay we get the recipe I guess we have those in the in plural now (our one). Have even been one the road with tar flower and other extremely funny things.

                  The puzzle for us is that diets on earthworms have been extremely successful for us, even when nursing back “hit and run” accidents and other nastiest. The amino makeup of these should bee les suited for our beloved ones than other water located organism. When making paste we include most of the organs and bone including head. This is somewhat of and massacre since we are still one the non-coking side of the fun.
                  Tone - Truls -Petter
                  Vogata NI

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    If you fatten your earthworms by keeping them in a box for a while with wet Japanese clay they will be gut loaded with the minerals and goodness from the clay. Also they will be cleaned.

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Interesting thread. I personally feel that most of the Japanese manufactured foods offer a pretty ballanced diet nowadays. Many people mix different brands, in the hope that where one food may lack a certain nutritional element, another will make up for it... not a bad move. However, the only way of knowing whether your feeding has been good, is to raise a group of small Koi to a large size, and finish the fish, after a number of years. The long term result will tell you whether you 'did good' or not.

                      Doug... as far as the last 10 All Japan Grand champs are concerned, 7 of these winners were raised by Momotaro, most of them from Tosai, or Nisai. Rather than me telling you how they have achieved this, why don't you take a trip there one day, and find out for yourself? You'll find that there's a lot more to it, than just good feeding.

                      Mike.
                      www.yumekoi.com

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Dear SMG like the idea, but cant really grasp why they should be so clean. Her in Norway many of your gender is hunting man gown bacteria just to compensate this funny way of living (the dairy are quit happy about this)
                        Nice to hear from you again but cant forgive the board for denying us the wet t-shirt.


                        Mike

                        When talking about produced foods we have the opposite approach. Must bee the engineer among us rubbing off on the rest. It’s just the basis rule – survival of the fittest. We really don’t believe that cars have been made with more lasting and functional parts either. (At least since Henry left his line)

                        To believe that companies with good revenue are producing the best they can or are economical inhibited is taking things a bit far.
                        Have heard the most about when customer is ………. and so forth. The simple fact is that I don’t know anybody ever contradiction what we call “cost efficiency point” it’s the place where the difference in producing/shipping/handling and accepted price out is the highest.
                        The simple fact is that food is hard kept and shipping in too Norway (excluding air freight) is almost to long. For food 3 months is a really long time if you don’t adjust for it in production. When we are at the pellets side we have not found any way around losing enormously when extending time the food is usable.

                        In our early years we where quit obsess with this and made use of the industrial research environment we have her (Norway is a big exporter off salmon). We went through almost every known big brad (no on mention is not by accident since this is not the point). All was from feeding point acceptable, when asking about all the nice and expensive ingredients (vitamins and mix amino acid …….) they didn’t find it to be sufficient or in a state where it would make any difference. In fact small brand seamed to have nicer “stuff in” or where fresher it seamed.
                        Disillusioned and weary we left the track and stated looking for a new road.

                        We do use pellet but not for the same reason as you describe. We are sorry, but have to blame it on the fact that we prioritise wrong. To our defence we must inform that we do our best too supply fresh feed to our Nishikigoi as often as possible.
                        Tone - Truls -Petter
                        Vogata NI

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Mike,
                          Frankly the only feed that has ever really appealed to me is the Koi Lord you used to sell. I have serious misgivings about almost all the rest if for no othre fact than it's all stuffed full of wheat flour to assist production ease, and not as a contribution to fish nutrition as they would have you think. Unfortunately you no longer import the product. Too bad. I would be temped to buy anything similar but in the meantime I'll stick to making my own.
                          B.Scott
                          Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            Aha Scott!

                            Ever wondered why I now import Momotaro food, and didn't import anything else in the interim??? :wink: Yep, you've guessed it... it's seaweed bound!!! It also has more goodies in it than the Koi Lord did. Unfortunately, it's also more expensive :cry:
                            I only feed this to my best Tosai (the ones I'm growing), as these Koi are the hardest to improve, and easiest to ruin. I feed Medicarp and Nobori to the other three ponds.

                            Going back to the Momotaro food, it was so damn hard to get it to clear customs last year (first shipment), that Mr Maeda told me that I could have it made over here. Trouble is, it was so damn expensive to get it made, as it was such a complicated recipe, that I have continued importing it.

                            Suffice to say, that the price is so high, that not that many people feed it in the UK. It does has it's avid fans though. Craig A, that posts here uses it. Prior to me importing it, he was buying it direct from Momotaro, and having them send it by air, one box (4 x 2kg bags) at a time, and it was costing him £190! I reckon that he spent most of his wages on food... seriously!

                            Mike.
                            www.yumekoi.com

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Hey Mike

                              i know exactly what you mean about how hard it is to get the food through customs. I had a hell of a time as well, the amount of running around almost makes you wanna give up many a time, but i am very happy now that it is all sorted out, likewise not many people have tried the all season koi food here in Australia namely due tot he price, a lot of people here aren't very educated about how important the quality of the food is. Then again we don't have imported kois here and most people use hard water anyway. i have found the all season food to be great, and it smells good too.

                              Vogata
                              Yes it is true that by the time a lot of food arrive from Japan to long distance places they have already degraded some what, a read of koi bito's articles will shick many people. That is why both me and mike so strongly support momotaro food, not only are they fed to all japan grand champions, they are packaged in nitrogen and vacuum sealed to seal int he freshness. I have heard from pellet manufacturers that food prepared this way stay as fresh as the day they are made for 12 to 18 months. Plus momotaro only makes food onn a monthly basis so it is always fresh.

                              Doug

                              I would be very interested in what you feed your kois? Since you seem to have quite a strong opinion of two of the best breeders in Japan. That have raised and bred the last 10 all Japan winners between them.


                              tewa
                              There is no such thing as a zero maintenance pond but the closer you get the more time to enjoy your koi. Soft low TDS water is the perfect pond water.
                              http://www.tewakoi.com

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