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How many momotaro Kohaku parent koi?

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  • How many momotaro Kohaku parent koi?

    Hi I was just wondering how many momotaro Kohaku parent koi does the momotaro koi farm use when spawning. Is it true that their is only two sets of parent koi. One is Eagle and the other is what?
    Going back to the genes, If they use only two sets of parents are the genes not their to throw good koi? If you purchase one of the offspring of the two and want to raise some koi, dont you have a chance? And why do you have to pay thousands of dollars for a koi to get some good stock?
  • #2

    The time it takes,...

    "If you purchase one of the offspring of the two and want to raise some koi, dont you have a chance? And why do you have to pay thousands of dollars for a koi to get some good stock?"

    Hi Koifishgirl,

    The first question that comes to mind is,... "How will you know you aren't breeding brother to sister when you "grab" a few Momotaro Koi and breed them together, or cousins, etc.?" Koi genetics are complex in that they are difficult to map, and very difficult to predict.

    Some pairings of Kohaku will produce ALL Aka-Muji, or koi with no desireable patterning,... some Kohaku pairings will produce all Goromo, or all fry with specks in the beni,... and these parent Koi can look excellent themselves, but the babys are all poor - and then some pairings are like magic!

    A good parent Koi will pass traits on to their offspring that the breeder desires - regardless of what the parent Koi looks like. Bad parent Koi pass on or magnify bad characteristics,... that aren't desired.

    A "good" parent set bred at Momotaro Farm CAN produce excellent offspring,... BUT these offspring may ALL be poor choices for parent Koi, because of the family history of the parent Koi. It's very important to know the history of the parents,... or you can spend a LOT of time and a lot of money spinning your wheels. As an example,... Maeda mixes Kohaku with Sanke in some of his breeding and gets Kohaku offspring,... breeding these Kohaku offspring may produce ALL Sanke,... it's hard to say without testing, or trial runs.

    Then,... after you have a good pairing,... you have to know how to cull this pairing's offspring,... do the Kohakus develop early? or late? What if they develop late, and you throw away all the good ones because they all looked like Aka-Muji at 45 days? What if the patterning passed on by the parent Koi was the type of patterning suitable for large Koi,... and the offspring all looked ugly until they were 3 years old and 60 cm, and then began growing into their patterning and looking stunning,... yet you didn't have a facility large enough to raise a group of 100 Koi to 60 cm,... you would never see the true potential of the parent stock,... and on and on.

    So, to answer,... good parent stock are very rare,... and rare is valuable,... and proven parent stock (parents that have been tested to be good, and come with a history of what to expect) have incredible value in that you know what you will get.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady Brandwood

    Comment

    • #3

      Thanks Brady, I see what you are talking I think. My understanding is that you just keep spending and breeding untill you come up with a good pair. You could run in mega buck like that and still may not come up with anything thats great.

      In terms of brother and sister are they not all if you go with momotaro koi, in the same family? My understanding is they only spawn two or three pair, so how can you be sure you are not buying brother and sister?

      I only have two acres, do you think that would be adaquate to raise a spawn up to a year? I had wanted to cull very heavy at first but now I am not so sure I should do this. And what about expense trying to raise koi up to that age and then them still not turn out that great. When I do my first spawn will be makeing a photo album of the koi at one month and then take pics after another month to compare to untill age of four months. I was hopeing that this would be enough time to tell the basic pattern of the koi, and be able to tell a little about hi and shiro, and also be able to look at the fry of my next spawn and be able to tell early on what to cull. Am I going about this all wrong? Also have though about benching the koi to see what kind of growth rates I will get in first 6 mo.

      Is their anyway that you can tag koi? It would be better in terms of identifying the koi if the change is drastic

      Comment

      • #4

        Koifishgirl, Momotaro spawn near or over 100 sets each year. Strange you think they only have 2 or 3 sets.

        Maurice.
        http://www.koi-uk.co.uk

        Comment

        • #5

          Years and years,...

          You'll do fine Koifishgirl,... just eat right, get plenty of sleep and exercise,... and watch your cholesterol. Longevity and patience are key.

          Best Wishes,
          Brady

          P.S. we just rag you about your spelling because you're new,... sort of an initiation.

          Comment

          • #6

            Along the same lines, I am going to use some Kohaku males with my Female Showa to improve the pattern of the Hi. Comments on this ?

            Comment

            • #7

              Originally posted by Maurice
              Koifishgirl, Momotaro spawn near or over 100 sets each year. Strange you think they only have 2 or 3 sets.

              Maurice.
              Now, Maurice, you've BEEN THERE. You've seen the Koi-Bito #6 DVD. But from the outside I can see how somebody could think there are only a few kohaku parent sets. Even Mike's articles on the 80cm quest talk about fish in relation to one of the famous champions.

              To my mind a breeder should have a vision of the end results desired. For instance, Brady's concept of a perfect kohaku could be different from Maeda's. 90% agreement but different in terms of the exact hue of beni, exact shape of head, exact shoulder shape, etc.

              And that's what makes artists (breeders) different and why different advanced hobbyists (customers!) will have different favorite breeders.

              Comment

              • #8

                Originally posted by gregbickal
                Along the same lines, I am going to use some Kohaku males with my Female Showa to improve the pattern of the Hi. Comments on this ?
                Interesting idea. Are you still going to cull for just showa?

                Comment

                • #9

                  Jason, there are two 500 tons ponds full of females, plus many in the 1500 ton pond are used for breeding.
                  This does not count the ones being grown on in 100 ton ponds.
                  And that's just for females. The males house that is being used at the moment is huge. About 20 ponds.

                  The whole thing is awesome!!

                  Mauurice.
                  http://www.koi-uk.co.uk

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    One of two 500 ton ponds for Momotaro breeder females.


                    Maurice.
                    http://www.koi-uk.co.uk

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      KFG, I would purposely look for brother-sister or first-cousin pairs and do line breeding initially. If the offspring are too weak, then I would look to out-cross them a bit the following year. I would look for sanke or sanke x kohaku rather than pure kohaku line just to add a little variety.

                      I guess Momotaro is the hot thing right now. However, just the cost of the logistics to get a known pair from Momotaro would be high, not counting the cost of the fish themselves. Besides, you should never spend a too much on a fish until you have discovered at least a dozen ways to accidentally kill them.

                      If I were in your position, I would talk nice to Brady and ask him to sell you some future breeders plus one old nag to mate with your existing fish this spring. Brady has high quality fish, is easy to communicate with, is very close by, and seems like a nice straight-forward person. You will learn a bunch of stuff just in the process of buying some fish from him. Frankly, I don't think he has to worry about you becoming competition for him because it will take the better part of a lifetime to develop his expertise. If that didn't work out, I would drive west and go see Brett.

                      -steve hopkins

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        A lot of his pairings are shown on the website for all to see.



                        http://www.momotaro-koi.org/english/oyakoi/index.htm

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          It is very easy to get the impression of Momotaro only having a handful of parent Koi, when in fact, it would be better to think of them having a handful of bloodlines.

                          As far as Kohaku go, there are Koi of 'Seio' line, when in fact, there are about six Sister's of Seio that are used for breeding, although Maurice now has one of them. Then there is 'Eagle', and about six Daughters that are used for breeding. Then there are those females from 'Sakurahime', of which about four Daughters were used last year. Then there are Daughter's from 'Yokihi', of which I was aware of two. There was a potential third that belonged to Mr Hayakawa and has just been sold overseas at 93cm. And then, there is 'Sandan Mako', who is now 5 years old and 97cm She has grown 3cm since last November! None of her offspring are for sale, and all are being raised as potential future parent candidates. There are also others in the pipeline for future breeding. The pics on Momotaro's website don't even scratch the surface.

                          Mike.
                          www.yumekoi.com

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            Hey Mike, did they ever get to spawn Monster Momotaro with any females? Also, did they ever get to spawn the 101cm Sanke? Thought I would just ask....
                            The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Hi Aquitori,

                              Monster Taro was used as a male parent with.... Maurice's Sanke!!! as Nisai at 73cm. He is now 95cm at 5 years old, but was sold to a customer from Thailand at Nisai, but on the understanding that he wasn't used for breeding again! This Koi was very valuable for this one off spawning, as Mr Maeda felt that this Koi's genetics (son of Mako, who was a sister to the 101cm Sanke), couple with that of the 84cm 5 year old female (now Maurice's) would create a step forward for producing even bigger Sanke. It was a great success! But, alas, Maurice will probably never get his hands on Monster Taro!

                              The 101cm Sanke, unfortunately, never yielded any eggs. But, they did try a coupld of years running with her (or it).

                              Mike.
                              www.yumekoi.com

                              Comment

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