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What breeding combinations would you make ?

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  • What breeding combinations would you make ?

    Ok, the primary goal is to produce a good variety of pond quality koi in the varieties of Showa/Sanke, Kohaku, Shiro-Utsuri. However, secondary goal is learning how specific male parings affect offspring.

    I realize my choices are low here with only one female Showa (I have other females, but they are non-gosanke). So should I just do a flock spawning, or would you recommend some strategic parings ? Like trying Showa/Sanke 2005, then Showa/Kohaku 2006, then Showa/Shiro Utsuri 2007 ?

    #1 Showa (breeder unkown), Female, 6 year old, 25"
    #2 Torazo Sanke, Male, 5 years old, 25"
    #3 Nogami Kohaku, Male, 2 years old, 18"
    #4 Kaneko Shiro Utsuri, Male, 2 years old, 14"
    Attached Files
  • #2

    Here's a picture of the female Showa as a Nissai in case it has any bearing
    Attached Files


    • #3

      I'd only pair type to type.

      You'll only end up with junk.


      • #4

        Showa/Sanke and look for Sanke from the breeding.


        • #5

          That is the exact same comment that Fujio told me.

          Is junk better than the mutts I was breeding previously

          This Showa's Hi is very virtually non-existant in the rear. I was hoping that mabye a kohaku would balance that out, however the Sanke might also do that ? I thought I had heard, Female for body type and conformation, and male for pattern and color, or something like that. I agree with Jason to use the Sanke and cull for Sanke.

          Could I use this Showa to produce some Shiro Utsuri with those males ? Since Sumi comes up and Hi shouldn't. What do you cull for when going for a pure Shiro Utsuri Mix ?


          • #6

            You said you were only after pond quality, otherwise I agree with Fujio and Maurice.

            I think Shiro/Showa is a throwback idea -- maybe it was done in the past, which is why some Shiros will throw Showas but I wouldn't do it now. Likely to be disappointed with all the results.

            I think the nisai males are also too young to breed to that female. Or at all really.

            The Omosako articles in the earlier Koi-Bitos would be worth a re-read to figure out how to breed and cull for Shiro Utsuri.


            • #7

              I want to see a green utsuri.. Chagoi and Shiro spawning...
              The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.


              • #8

                A flock spawning makes no sense. if you do get something you'd never duplicate'd have to keep everything that looked like anything.

                since red is the weakness with your showa i would bring in sanke or kohaku.

                if i was doing it I'd keep the showa crosses not the sanke ones.

                the problem with shiro to showa is at any time a knock dead georgeous shiro could develop red and ruin everything after years of hard work.

                thought; keep some showa and sanke from the showa sanke cross and see which turns out better. both are available, why favor one over another when you can speed up the learning process by an entire season by keeping both?

                good luck!
                Dick Benbow


                • #9

                  I would only breed type to type but you can breed Kohaku and Sanke together since they are one in the same. Kohaku and Showa I dont think so. By the way Tancho Kohaku are Kohaku. Kohaku to Kohaku will throw Sanke.

                  Hi Brady, Your good friend Steve tells me to butter you up and maybe you will be nice enough to sell some of your old bags to me. I think he's kinda funny, and maybe some of the good un's. One thing is for sure I have never been able to butter anyone up when it comes to money. Can I butter you up Brady?


                  • #10

                    Aquitori: there was a Cha Utsuri on one of the dealer sites a couple of weeks ago. It was not impressive. Forget which one, but if you surf you may find it.


                    • #11

                      Hirasawa (Saitaro) breeds a few ChaUtsuri.
                      Last year he had one for sale, heading up towards a metre, it was priced a 1,000,000 yen.


                      • #12

                        Pic from a german dealer-homepage.

                        I don't know the breeder.
                        Nisai at 47cm


                        • #13

                          Thanks for the pciture post. I think consumers in general are always looking for something new or different. they grow tired of seeing the same "eye candy" in everyone's ponds.

                          I think from a breeders standpoint, it would take time to learn what to keep and what to get rid of in the beginnings. so the few that turn out you'd have to pay dearly for. Even when you get the methods and selection down you don't want to flood the market but rather keep the rarity factor and therefor the price remains up.

                          from a consumers standpoint one wouldn't really know how stable this would be
                          from a rearing standpoint. Will the black continue to come in? Will it grow out?
                          From an ardent show person do you take something like this and throw it into the toughest class there is kawarimono. i wouldn't want the job of judging that class as it's not apples to apples.

                          when you stand back and look at all the progress color variations have made over the last 200 years, it's a pretty big accomplishment by a select group
                          of families dedicated TOTALLY to their industry.
                          Dick Benbow


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