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Sumi development - Back to Front

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  • Sumi development - Back to Front

    I recently heard something interesting and new to me regaring sumi development. I heard that sumi develops from the back-end/tail section of koi and develops forward to the head section/front of the fish.

    Therefore, when we look at unfinished koi to assess it's sumi quality we should evaluate the strength/quality of sumi on the front section of the koi because it is the weakest point for sumi. So if the sumi quality is good upfront, then so will the rest of the sumi on the koi; whether sumi is already showing or not.

    Does this only apply to gosanke? At the time we were only looking at sankes and showas.

    True or false? Maybe I heard my facts wrong. But I'd like to open it up to the board members to shed some light on this "dark" subject .
  • #2

    You heard right. He did repeat it multiple times. Also said that hi moves from front to back. Makes it interesting for sanke!

    On the other hand, look at showa and emerging sumi.

    But mostly he was talking about quality of sumi. If the nice sumi is on the back but the sumi on front isn't so hot then it is likely the sumi on the front isn't going to get better.

    Rules for choosing, not absolutes I'm sure.

    Btw, the new kohaku sure looks nice in my pond.

    Comment

    • #3

      Originally posted by JasonS
      You heard right. He did repeat it multiple times. Also said that hi moves from front to back. Makes it interesting for sanke!

      On the other hand, look at showa and emerging sumi.

      But mostly he was talking about quality of sumi. If the nice sumi is on the back but the sumi on front isn't so hot then it is likely the sumi on the front isn't going to get better.

      Rules for choosing, not absolutes I'm sure.

      Btw, the new kohaku sure looks nice in my pond.

      You got a pic of the Kohak you bought Jas..
      The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

      Comment

      • #4

        Btw, the new kohaku sure looks nice in my pond. [/QUOTE]

        Cool. That is a very nice fish and it wasn't a good price... it's was a steal

        Comment

        • #5

          But my wife says she isn't letting me near any auctions anymore.

          Aqui -- Erwin has a better pix somewhere, but here is one I like -- it shows off all the faults of the fish.
          Attached Files

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          • #6

            Nice Kohak...Kuchibeni even, I like ...Great buy...
            The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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            • #7

              It has been a rule of thumb that blacvk is trongest in the tail section and works forward. There are individual fish ( like people ) who don't play by the rules.

              I like to find a sanke that has a good shoulder patch and maybe not a lot else showing. A showa i want to see something on the head and maybe some pin prick black at the base of the dorsal.


              the koi with black at the tail and you wish for something at the head or shoulder can be frustrating but it can happen. Keep in mind your water has a lot to do with black development. Most modern day go sanke take 4-8 years to get an idea of what's coming, so don't be in a hurry to off anything.
              Dick Benbow

              Comment

              • #8

                Same order of idea, I bought that Koromo (5 years old and 47 cm) just before winter at a good price (300 €uros) because the dealer wanted to empty his stock. I didn't really like the sumi but that fish was so friendly that i thought he will have a good influence to my others koi.
                How do you think the sumi will develop ? What kind of food should i give if I want increase the sumi developemnt ?
                Attached Files

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                • #9

                  Marco, that is a lovely Ai-goromo and I wouldn't wish for more sumi on it.

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                  • #10

                    Originally posted by JasonS
                    You heard right. He did repeat it multiple times. Also said that hi moves from front to back. Makes it interesting for sanke!

                    On the other hand, look at showa and emerging sumi.

                    But mostly he was talking about quality of sumi. If the nice sumi is on the back but the sumi on front isn't so hot then it is likely the sumi on the front isn't going to get better.
                    Jason,

                    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you say "If the nice sumi is on the back but the sumi on front isn't so hot then it is likely the sumi on the front isn't going to get better."

                    If the sumi develops from back to front and you have a sanke or showa with nice sume at the back.....wouldn't that be a good indication that the sumi in front of it would also develop into similar nice quality sumi in time? Please explain your statement. Maybe I'm confused!

                    Thanks,
                    Dale

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                    • #11

                      Dale, I wish I could explain it better but I think Dick explained it about as well as I ever could:
                      I like to find a sanke that has a good shoulder patch and maybe not a lot else showing. A showa i want to see something on the head and maybe some pin prick black at the base of the dorsal.

                      the koi with black at the tail and you wish for something at the head or shoulder can be frustrating but it can happen.
                      This is the essential part of the lesson we were being taught over the weekend, I think. It was also couched in judging a koi; the sumi near the front is judged more important than that near the back.

                      Keep in mind this lesson was for sanke and showa -- I wouldn't apply it to Goromo for instance.

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Jason,

                        Please bear with me. Are we talking about two different things? The person who started this thread, erwinsan, said:

                        "I recently heard something interesting and new to me regaring sumi development. I heard that sumi develops from the back-end/tail section of koi and develops forward to the head section/front of the fish."

                        Then you said in your reply to my question:

                        [QUOTE=JasonS]Dale, I wish I could explain it better but I think Dick explained it about as well as I ever could: This is the essential part of the lesson we were being taught over the weekend, I think. It was also couched in judging a koi; the sumi near the front is judged more important than that near the back.
                        QUOTE]

                        I thought we were discussing sumi development, which erwinsan said would develop from back to front. You are talking about judging sumi on the day in a koi show and indicating sumi importance in judging is from front to back? Is that correct? Exactly opposite of sumi development?

                        My question was if I were considering a sanke or showa that had better sumi on the back and it was still developing, would it be safe to assume that the potential of the sumi at the front would eventually improve to be similar to nice sumi that had developed at the back?

                        I apologize if I wasn't clear or didn't explain my question.

                        Dale

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                        • #13

                          Sorry if it is all muddled in my explaination -- the original speaker is an AKCA judge and a very experienced hobbyist. Both parts enter into it -- even AKCA judges will look towards the 'future' of a smaller fish when judging and I think this is one of the things they look for.

                          The 'rule of thumb' is to pick the color quality based on the quality in the front of the fish for sumi and near the back for hi. For example, a sanke with weak hi on the tail tube is not considered as nice as a sanke with stronger hi on the tail tube but weaker hi in the front. The thought is that the hi will get stronger on one fish while the other probably won't. The best indication of future sumi development is looking at the shoulder for sumi on white background -- if that is strong but the sumi elsewhere on the fish isn't so good then the expectation is that the other sumi will get better.

                          The rule of thumb does have exceptions, of course. Just like the concept that 'you get what you pay for'.

                          I still remember the comparison of one of my sanke with another hobbyist's sanke at a young koi show. The head judge (a different judge than the above) was talking about both fish as a lesson for the assembled gaggle of hobbyists. The confirmation on my fish was better, the sumi was up but not good quality and the skin was fine. The other fish had better sumi on the shoulder (very nice), better pattern, better color quality overall. But the other fish didn't have finished sumi overall; even some on the tail wasn't really finished. The junior judge said that confirmation should tip the balance, but the head judge pointed out that overall quality should tip the balance.

                          I think the head judge is/was correct. The other fish was better and much more tategoi. Part of the reason for that assessment is that sumi on the shoulder -- it shows a better future for the fish than hoping for the sumi on the tail to solidify as well on the shoulder; it is already there.

                          Oh, and part of the reason I think the judge was correct -- the other fish cost 10x as much as mine did.

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            It was Dr. Mao .. uh .. something (Head of the original Taiwan ZNA) that stated: hi development starts from the head section and sumi development starts from the tail section. The implication were hi plate is better at the front and sumi is better at the tail. The true (kohaku) tategoi that I've seen did not exhibit strong hi @ the head area/weaker hi @ the tail end at all. May be that is why real tategoi is so rare?

                            I do not know how much of the truth in Dr. Mao's theory, all I know is what ever else statements he made were true. I believe that JR knows and respect Dr. Mao well. Donald

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