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Does the Beni of Homebred's fare better?

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  • Does the Beni of Homebred's fare better?

    Hoping Brady and Maurice see this and make comment.

    In the thread titled "Showa in warm Climates" there is mention of Koi bred from Japanese parents Koi in Malasia, faring better than the imported Japanese Koi, in the very warm hard (Alkaline) water there. The Beni was more stable and likely to be thicker.

    It was mentioned that perhaps when culling was taking place, those small Koi selected as keepers, were even then at an early stage in their lives, showing Beni suited to the water they were being brought up in.

    The imported Japanese Koi though, had been brought up in soft (Neutral) water and once imported to live in the harder Malasia water, struggled to keep their Beni colour.

    I would guess that this would not apply to all Koi, but is there something in this?

    I know Maurice uses RO water to breed and grow on his Koi, so as to make Japanese water and all the good point of the water (hope I'm accurate here Maurice). I dont know if Brady does the same, or just uses the water as it is?

    Any thoughts on this?
    Regards, Bob
    ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º>
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  • #2

    Bob, sorry I have not the time tonight, but I'll post tomorrow.
    But in short genetics have more influence than anything, if you do not have water to suit the koi, the slightest hicup and the beni will start to fade with some and not others.


    • #3

      Hi Bob!
      From my experience, while genetics do play a part in the life of the beni, being born to the water conditions from hatchling as opposed to an imported koi that was bred in quite different water and now are asking to adapt is from where some of the problems begin.
      I think Maurice with his RO water is duplicating the kind of water the parents were born/raised in and the expectation is better as to what to expect from their youngsters. because the water parameters have remained similar!
      Dick Benbow


      • #4

        I’ve not been breeding gosanke long enough to answer the question, I can only put my ‘take’ on it.

        Over the years I have bought many kohaku from all sorts of breeders, Having kept these koi in my ponds and those of friends I have seen koi from some breeders never lose their beni, yet those from other breeders often loosing their beni all too frequently.

        So genetics must be in there somewhere with this problem.

        This year I have a large list of gosanke I plan on breeding so it may help me figure out a little more. But last year I spawned 2 kohaku females, from one spawn there were many shiromuji at first cull, about half of the non-patterned koi were white, the others red. From the other spawning hardly any of the fry were white, most were red. As the year went by constantly koi would turn muji in the pond where many white fry were found early on, this did not happen in the other spawning and very few shiromuji koi have been found.

        This may all be a coincidence, but they were all bred with same water supply which was very hard (no RO).

        There have been hiccups with these koi during this winter, they have all been treated for some kind of parasite. Although the parasites were different, both spawnings have had trauma to go though, these koi have followed the same trend one type a few have lost their beni, the others have not.

        As has been said many times, the type of red makes a difference, the spawning which were most prone to losing their beni are a much deeper red, the spawning with the very stable beni are more ‘orange’

        But it is also possible to tell the ones which may lose their colour and the ones which won’t. It can be seen in the thickness of the colour.

        At present, I can’t see that the water type has much to do with it, but I could be wrong?

        For me at this stage, it leave more questions than answers.



        • #5

          Please excuse a string of questions here ...


          Did the spawn which continues to turn shiromuji come from parents (one or both) with the darker type of red? Can you tell us anything about the lineage of the parents of this spawn?


          Did all, or most, of the gosanke with the dark red hi originate from the Manzo bloodline? Is this similar to Maruyama's "Kagura Beni"? Is Yagozen-type beni the same as, or similar to, Manzo-type beni? Do you suspect that all of these are more prone to hi degradation?

          The Manzo bloodline is said to be more prone to developing shimmies. Are all, or most, bloodlines which are prone to hi degradation also prone to shimmies?

          I'm probably wanting something which is very complex to be over-simplified, but your thoughts are appreciated.

          Oh yeah, and this too...

          Just like Dick says above, I am starting to see some signs that sanke raised here may have better hi than their parents (which were brought in from elsewhere). Its too early to say for sure, but I appreciate this small ray of hope.

          -steve hopkins


          • #6

            here are 3 koi bred in singapore which i recently bought. quality of the skin looks very good to me. should be interesting to see how they develop. dealer decided to breed one of his kohaku as a learning exercise, he's keeping about 20 out of the thousands of fry, been busy culling since end of last year. he let my friends and i buy a few of them to minimize his investment cost in the project. not sure how far they'll grow as mother is only 77cm (though still young - about 4-5 years old), but signs are good so far.
            Attached Files


            • #7

              I think your tosai will be fun to watch develop. I like em! You'll have to post them at the end of the growth year.

              I never liked the hard red as a breeder. Always the one with the red toward orange. If it wasn't for the secondary hi of sensuke bloodline, that would be my pick hands down!
              Dick Benbow


              • #8

                hi there, i havent posted on here before but have been lurkin for some time! i dont have the knowledge to particpate in a lot of the discussions but thy are very interesting to read bit off topic but i was just wondering if someone could point me in the right direction for me to find out some more about the different bloodlines in go-sanke , might be a silly question but is there like a family tree of koi ???? so that the parentage of a certain breeders fish can be traced back to it origins ???



                • #9

                  Originally posted by dick benbow
                  I think your tosai will be fun to watch develop. I like em! You'll have to post them at the end of the growth year.
                  okie dokie Dick. Will update in 6 months time. mind you, there's no such thing as "growth year" here in our parts cause it's warm all the time and the fish will feed throughout the year.


                  • #10


                    Thank you for your comments, always interested to hear info on your spawnings. You say they were bred into hard water, are these now being grown on in your RO water?
                    I was justwondering if bred, culled and grown on in hard water, they may be stand up to harder water long term?
                    I know a lot is written regarding Koi losing their colour, but I wonder if this is just the power of the internet and there always were Koi which lost their colour. Or of course the colour was a trouble to stailise once moved.

                    I do wonder, as you say, that asking Koi to adapt is part of the problem some people have. The difficulty of course is, that none of us have the same water, therefore there is no easy way to raise the Koi to suit everyone.

                    I dont now buy Kohaku, as everyone has Shimmies. I tend to stick to Sanke and Showa, where should a shimmie appear, it wouldnt look too out of place. My water is very hard, currently having it retested to be sure of every bit of it.

                    This is why I was wondering if the adaption from Soft to Hard brings out all of the issues that occassionally occur.
                    If it were at all possible, financially and time-bound, it would be an interesting experiment to split a spawn and raise/cull in soft and hard water.
                    Regards, Bob
                    ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º>
                    <º}}}}>< <º}}}}><


                    • #11

                      Bob, from what I have seen so far, the water has little to do with the koi holding onto it’s beni or not.

                      From the spawning that has proved to be a problem, more have lost their colour in the hard water they were born in, than those which have been switched to soft (but that’s not a fair assumption, as prior to culling there were far more koi to start) .

                      I can’t give any definitive answers; it will take years to work this out.

                      I may be well off with my findings, as the spawning which has given me troubles was one which I may have created to start with. This whole spawn spent 12 hours in water of 50c, they should all have been dead!!! (that’s another story). There are so many variables.

                      Steve, at this stage it would not be fair to name for me to name the line of koi, the problems may be of my own doing and with the power of the internet, damage can be done to koi types when it is not the real cause. But I steer clear of the hard purple beni.



                      • #12

                        Appreciate you honesty and openness Maurice.

                        I understand the long hours you spend on your business and the problems that can be encountered. I'm sure you learn something every day regarding trials and experiments you try.

                        Look forward to seeing it all for real, once the weather warms up and you open the doors to us 'hobbyists'.

                        Thanks for answering my questions.
                        Regards, Bob
                        ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º>
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                        • #13

                          Markam: If you ever find such a work product, please share it! There are a half dozen or so major historic lines of Kohaku and Sanke, and subordinate ones, which breeders over the past 50 years have crossed and re-crossed in so many different ways that I do not think they could ever be untangled. On paper, they would look completely confused. But, that is because the reality of individual fish is not just the mixing of 2 parts Manzo with 4 parts Sensuke, 1 part Yagozen and 1 part "unknown". Within any "named" type there is variation. Brady Brandwood has expressed it well by describing these "bloodlines" as really just shorthand ways of trying to communicate certain groupings of genetic characteristics so koikeepers can try to talk to one another. The so-called "bloodlines" seldom breed true, so in the end we are just searching for a vision of beauty among genetic combinations that are not very predictable. At the same time, genes are genes ... they do control, and the breeder is searching for that combination of parents that will will combine their genes in that special way that produces a grand champion.

                          If a Supreme Being wanted to cause a perfectionist an eternity of frustration, they would be damned to breed koi.


                          • #14

                            Oh, Markam. That was such a great question, I forgot. ... Welcome! I don't recall another Irish koikeeper on this board. So, stick around. The international flavor of Koi Bito is what makes this board special.


                            • #15

                              You have a very good thought concerning the "beni" having multiple genetically determined factors; And that one aspect could be that more than one set of "genes for beni" may be thrown in a single spawn and that the beni that is superior for the water inwhich the fry are raised will also effect how quickly the beni will appear in the fry.... Good Hypothesis.
                              Very cool thinking.

                              Soel...those are some very entertaining tategoi.

                              And to whoever posted that the fish raised in a certain water developed the ability to form good beni for that water...that way of thinking got the USSR in "default" mode early on in its development. The Red Farm geneticists believed that if they exposed the next year's wheat seed to a cold wet climate that it would develop the ability to grow in a cold wet environment....what happened was the wheat seed viability and vigor was dramatically reduced. However the thought process behind the decision to develop a "superior seed" followed the "logic" of the Political party so it was supported long after it should have been canned.


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