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  • Ole Blue Eyes

    Hi,

    The eye rims of Sanke and Showa are blue tint. This, I believe, is due to the presence of underlying sumi. Is this observation universal for all Sanke and Showa?

    While this argument may hold true with Showa since they started life as Kuroko fry, I find it difficult to appreciate with Sanke since they were basically white fry.

    On the other hand, I see alot of Shiro Utsuri with black eyes. Why then, do we not see more Showa with black eyes? Could this be a result of less rigorous cullng program for Shiro Utsuri since black eyes are not desirable traits?

    Please see attach some pix of Tosai when they were about 6mths old. Would love to hear some insights (*sic*) here.

    Cheers..
    Attached Files
  • #2

    What I have been taught is: If the blue rim exists on a Kohaku, it is not a Kohaku. It may be Sanke or Showa or Goromo, etc., but not Kohaku.


    As to black eyes, I will defer to thers. I personally find the black-eyed Shiro to be particularly attractive.

    Comment

    • #3

      I wish I could devote alot of time to having ready photos etc so you could see.
      But in the development of sanke right after they hatch they are basically yellow headed black bodies fry for the longest time till the black shrinks and the beni pattern shows.

      interesting you use momotaro pics for your photos. His kohaku bloodline was developed with the blood of sanke. Many breeders use sanke to give that beautiful blue black to their showas. Shiro utsuri improved their black after they lost favor to showa in the progression of development. When interest sparked again shiro was redesigned from showa bloodline which helped their black immensely.

      the study of genetics and improvement is quite interesting.
      Dick Benbow

      Comment

      • #4

        Hi MikeM,

        Thanx for the practical information, used to sieve out failed sanke/showa in the guise of Kohaku. Could it be used as an indication of Goshiki/Goromo during the Tosai stage?

        I am attaching a pix with the looks of Cleopatra for your pleasure

        Cheers..


        Originally posted by MikeM
        What I have been taught is: If the blue rim exists on a Kohaku, it is not a Kohaku. It may be Sanke or Showa or Goromo, etc., but not Kohaku.


        As to black eyes, I will defer to thers. I personally find the black-eyed Shiro to be particularly attractive.
        Attached Files

        Comment

        • #5

          This is one of the reasons why I started this thread. It is to solicit comments from learned folks such as yourself who has seen enough fry to know. I did not know that Sanke fry are yellow headed/black bodied. Learning something new here. How about Kindai showa? They have an infusion of Kohaku blood. Will their fry be Kuroko still?

          Referring back to my earlier question, is the blue rim universal for all sanke/showa?

          One of my friends mentioned that this is not one of the things that we look out for when choosing a koi and I fully agree with this comments. It is after the aquisition when I find myself staring at the picture of the koi, looking at details such as these, which may give us hints regarding its lineage and genes. Interesting stuff..

          cheers..


          Originally posted by dick benbow
          I wish I could devote alot of time to having ready photos etc so you could see.
          But in the development of sanke right after they hatch they are basically yellow headed black bodies fry for the longest time till the black shrinks and the beni pattern shows.

          interesting you use momotaro pics for your photos. His kohaku bloodline was developed with the blood of sanke. Many breeders use sanke to give that beautiful blue black to their showas. Shiro utsuri improved their black after they lost favor to showa in the progression of development. When interest sparked again shiro was redesigned from showa bloodline which helped their black immensely.

          the study of genetics and improvement is quite interesting.

          Comment

          • #6

            the word kindai translates into modern. It's still a black fry and really trieds the patience of newbees differentiating between what a showa and sanke is. The koi pictured on my posting is a 7 year old kindai from igarashi kazuto. If i had a quarter for everytime someone visited and said what a nice sanke, I could buy you and i a nice lunch!


            for me when it comes to choosing koi be it sanke or showa, i look for good white
            as a primary and then especially in a showa, good red. ( it's their weakest link!)
            then I look for where the black is. On the koi pictured she had black on the head, one pec and mid body as a two year old. Beautiful body shape, nice black and white, she blew out of her red at 5 in the grow ponds. I don't think in the next year any black is coming on the head altho the mid section has filled in more since the picture.

            the best showa I ever had was bred by daiinichi. as a two year old everything was already in place, the black was cage ( pronounced "Kaa-gay") and i just watched it fill in with age. Fujio omoo found her as a tosai and talked the brothers out of her. I obtained her the following year. this was the same year that he conspired with nogamo to start breeding his own showa. Neat guy, if you ever get a chance to meet him he's very personable. Hey he loves showas so you gotta love the guy!
            Dick Benbow

            Comment

            • #7

              Hi Dick,

              Would love to see the latest pix of the Igarashi Kindai if you don't mind sharing. I can imagine the joy of seeing the sumi filling in.

              I have my fare share of Kage sumi. It would be more difficult for me to fill them in due to the climate that I live in. The serious hobbyists here use chiller to bring the temperature down to 23-25 year round for twin purposes of increasing DO and bringing out sumi. I will probably do likewise later.

              Oomo appears to export more to Europe and USA. He does get a lot of media visiibilty there and I am sure his role as a guide and mastery of the English language has helped too. There were plans by a local dealer to bring in some shipment of Nogami showa, but due to the unfortunate Niigata event, that was put on hold. Instead, he brought in a shipment of Maruyama Showa. No guessing why.. Just some trivial information to share.

              Cheers..

              Comment

              • #8

                Hi Guys, sorry I missed out on this conversation, I haven't visited here in a while and just stopped and and saw this subject.

                This was a real 'eye opener' for me ( no pun intended) when I learned about the phenotype of gosanke as it pertains to the eyes. In a pure bred, or dominate kohaku genotype, the eye is black. And in a pure sanke, the eye has the classic silver 'fern' in the eye. Additionally, the sanke gene carries the blue eye lid.

                Now it is no secret that kohaku and sanke are often in the same spawn. so it is very very normal to see blue eyelids in todays kohaku - but they have black eyes. I'm of the belief that the 'fern' eye is linked to the sumi presence. So getting a kohaku with a fern eye is not likely. But the blue lid is not directly linked to sumi. Yet it seems common to see deep shimmies in kohkau with blue eye lids? maybe it is a less dominating trait than the fern eye?

                Here are some drawings I made for consideration. JR
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • #9

                  Now it is no secret that kohaku and sanke are often in the same spawn.
                  wich means that kohaku with shimmies are actually sanke failures?????
                  groeten wilco

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Wilco, there are a couple of different types of what we all call shimmies. Some are tiny dots of black on the surface of the epidermis that can actually be easily scraped or eroded away chemically. Other 'shimmies' are deep and cover more that a fraction of the scale- actually the sumi is both on top of and under the scale. This is, in my opinion, not shimmie but rather sumi pattern- and likely residual genetics from sanke.
                    I have seen this kind of 'shimmie' marking form a crude sanke pattern. It is glossy/dense and often lined up along the peduncle.

                    JR

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      I am very interested in the eyes of koi because I carve koi out of wood and the eyes are very hard to see in pictures and my koi all have white eyes. Do all koi have black pupils and different colors around it? How many different color eyes would you say there are? The red eyes of the kigoi, are they the pupils or the color around the eye? I notice that the red eye on some kohaku are the color over the top of the outside of the eye. I have always thought that the blue on the showa and sanke eyes was from sumi underneath but I have no expertise in that at all and it was a guess. Some of the varieties of koi besides gosanke are not seen as often so I can't tell what color eyes they have. Any insight would be appreciated. Jack

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by JR
                        And in a pure sanke, the eye has the classic silver 'fern' in the eye. Additionally, the sanke gene carries the blue eye lid.
                        Hi JR,

                        Thanx for dropping in and giving further clarity (*aiyah*) on this subject. I have learned something new today!

                        I am attaching some pix of old photo to reference the illustration that you did.

                        The first is of a eye of a normal kohaku that has the black pupil and white sclera. The second one seems to have tainted purplish red on the sclera portion. Can you shed some light (*aiyoh*) on this, aesthetically and phenotypically wise?

                        I have difficulty visualising the silver fern concept. Does the third picture of a showa show the silver fern?

                        Thanx again. Much appreciated.

                        cheers..
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          well first off, the show makes no distinct between these eye types- it is only a point of interest for the koi student, budding breeder and maybe educated consumer ( especially if you keep koi in hard water with high alkalinity).

                          The angle on your photos makes this all a little hard to see. Here's another angle that shows a classic sanke eye with fern---
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            And here is a typical kohaku eye.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              JR, I'll bite on the hook ["especially if you keep koi in hard water with high alkalinity"]. Hhmmmm .... look to the eyes to avoid shimmies?

                              Comment

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