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    I guys I am thinking of getting a show koi, a momotaro Kohaku from Keirin Koi, What I was woundering is if I put her in a mud pond will her hi fade. I can put her in my main pond but it is only 3ft deep and I dont want to stunt her growth. If anyone wants to take a look at her she is koi# MAJK-8024. She is a female for sure and she is 48cm so I know this one is a female. How do you think I would do if I placed her in a show.
  • #2

    $3K is a bit of $$ and this is a nice fish. http://www.keirinponds.com/fishpics/majk-8024lg.jpg

    A-MAB-9001 is quite nice tho'. Too bad somebody already bought it.

    Many nice fish on that page. http://www.keirinponds.com/cda/page1...e=showcategory

    And to answer the question: depends on the competition. Certainly not GC at a full show -- she is only an 18" fish. Maybe GC in a Young Koi Show...

    The one with the best chance at a GC today is, unsurprisingly, the most expensive one.

    Comment

    • #3

      Hi Jason, do you really think she could win Young Grand Champ? I wanted her to show and use as a parent koi. I have said that I would not spend that kind of money on a koi but if I want to get started with my breeding program well I guess I will have to.
      I dont really understand how the Show Thing works. If I placed her in a show and she does by chance win YG. could I place her in the show the next year and win with her at the Jumbo level?

      Comment

      • #4

        Hi Guys, she is two years old and is already 18 inches how much more do you think she can grow this season and do you guys think she would make a good parent koi?

        Comment

        • #5

          I think it's a nice koi. Will it grow to be a monster, I don't think so because of the size of it now. I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a koi to go into a pond that is not built for that grade of koi. Take that money and redo the pond then think about koi like that. It would be a shame to mess up a nice koi like that.

          Here's a koi that rocks my world. This koi keeps telling me buy me, but it's out of my price range at this time.



          Tom

          Keep it simple, keep it straight Koi-Bito.com

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          • #6

            how much is the koi,and the breeder?

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            • #7

              That koi is at www.lagunakoi.com . It's $2,500, and I don't know the breeder.

              Tom

              Keep it simple, keep it straight Koi-Bito.com

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              • #8

                Hi Tom I am not going to get the koi not because I dont think I can take care of her but because of price. I think I can get another good koi at a better price.

                Comment

                • #9

                  Good advice Tom, about investing in the sytem first. To buy koi KFG is to buy a dream. To pay that kind of money for a koi bred to grow big and then not to allow it thru physical limitations of a facility is to cheat all three...you, the koi and the breeder!

                  what i'd like to see you do is use a koi as a breeder and begin learning how to spawn, how to care for the fry and him to cull. When you get that down and have the knowledge and facilities in place you'll be able to get a return on your investment.

                  One thing I've learned in almost 3 decades is ( wait for it) there will always be another koi! (LOL)
                  Dick Benbow

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                  • #10

                    Hi Dick what about mud ponds I think that is where she grew up so wny not put her back in a mud pond. You think she would not do well in a mud pond. That is where she is headed if I do purchase her.

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                    • #11

                      Dick I think you are so right. Breeding is a art that takes time to learn. Why not try to get down, breeding, culling, and just keeping fry alive down first. Once you get all of these down it's a lot easier. I have a local breeder here that kills a lot of fry every year and has no idea why. He did three breedings last year and only one pond made it.

                      By the time you get all of this down, your breeders will be old. I think most breeder move in new breeder very few years. Maybe Brady can tell us more about his breeders.

                      We did a few breedings and I was shocked how much work culling was. Not only are you dealing with a lot of little fry, but your trying to find what once are good and what ones are culls. After about 4,000 they all look like culls. Remember you can't keep them all if you want them to grow. Maybe some of the breeder on the board can tell us how many koi they will keep in a mud pond from a breeding.

                      Tom

                      Keep it simple, keep it straight Koi-Bito.com

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Yes Tom that will be the hard part for me. I dont think I will have a problem with spawning the parent or raiseing the fry. but culling is something that I dont have any experience with. Just to help some of you out with my experience with raiseing fry trust me I learned the hard way. It was not koi but same thing in a way. Raised all types of tropical fish with luck and dont see where that will be a problem for me. But now culling is a different story for me. I dont have a clue as to what to keep and what to cull. That in itself is going to be a problem for me as i am sure I may run into big trouble trying to hold on to to many koi so I can watch the koi grow and watch the patterns. The only thing that I know to cull are the deformed and white koi in a Kohaku spawn. other than that I am lost.
                        I will have three fry ponds will use two to raise the fry and the other to spawn and hatch the fry. If any of you see a problem with this or that this is wrong how about your comments. I dont know everything and dought I ever will so all the advice given will be of great help.
                        I have took most of the advice given on the board. I dont plan of buying the show koi for reasons explained on this board. You #1 Tom. I do think it would be better for me to get a cheaper koi to do my first spawn. If I lost that koi due to something that I done well I would be heart broken and the koi lost would be a great lose.. She is a very nice koi and is better off in someone eles hands. By the way I really dont think Keirin Koi wants to sell her anyway. They say she is turning out to be a really nice koi and are working with her. I am sure they will thought they just hate to I think from the way they talk
                        Three pond 30x30x3 ft deep, any idea as to how long I could keep a spawn in these three ponds? If this is not enough how many ponds of this size do you think I will need to raise the koi to a size that the pattern will be set,or close? I dont want to cull many as I need to learn what to keep and what to cull and if I start culling koi and dont know what I am doing well you know how that goes I could cull the good ones. To be honest I am just plain scared.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          "The only thing that I know to cull are the deformed and white koi in a Kohaku spawn. other than that I am lost."

                          Actually, you have to keep the white ones for a while to give the beni time to rise. You can throw out the solid red very early though. The first fish I raised were kohaku and, in hindsight, that seems like a stroke of luck as they are easier to cull. Of course, I still struggle with predicting confirmation and how the pattern will sit as the fish grows. However, with other varieties there may be a half-dozen of these puzzling factors to deal with simultaneously.

                          Each November I am disappointed that I kept all those junk fish. Spring brings new optimism. The key to culling may lie in the ability to hold on to November's feeling of disappointment through the following spring and summer. You have to be ruthless and remember that they can only get worse as they age.

                          -steve hopkins

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                          • #14

                            Hi Steve with the pond size that I have under construction do you think I will have the space to grow the koi to a good size that i will be able to tell about pattern. How long should I hold the koi so I can tell?

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                            • #15

                              I'm not an expert and provide this only because I'm hoping someone will correct me...

                              You will know if they are black babies or white babies in the first week. If there are any black ones you can throw them away immediately. Some kohaku lines are pretty good about not throwing black babies.

                              At about four weeks (depends on temperature - could be 3-5 weeks) you can tell if they are going to be solid red. There will probably be a lot of these and they can be discarded. If it has a red belly, toss it. About this time you will start to see a few with red showing under the white skin. It will look sort of pinkish. Keep all of these for now. Some that look solid white now will start to develop the pinkish pattern under the skin later so don't toss the solid white ones yet.

                              At eight weeks, they are looking like koi. It's probably safe to toss the solid white ones now. Since some kohaku have some sanke in the bloodline (e.g. Momotaro, I'm told), you may see hints of sumi developing. Keep them if you want a shot at making some sanke or bekko. Otherwise, toss them. You should also toss ones with red in the pectoral fins, red wrapping way below the eye or red down on the belly. You will want some odome so you can toss the ones with red bleeding into the tail. If the hi pattern looks to large, but does not wrap way below the lateral line, you should probably keep them for now. The hi pattern will shrink as the fish grows so one that looks like a perfect kohaku now may have a pattern that is too weak when its grown.

                              Of course, toss anything that looks deformed. Pay particular attention to the gill operculum. If you can see gill tissue from a side view (operculum too short), toss it. It the rear edge of the operculum seems to curl outward, toss it. With my fish, many of the fingerlings with the best patterns have flared gills (curled operculum). Trust me, they do not grow out of it - toss them.

                              Unfortunately, before you can cull them, you have to catch them. This is the hard part. Everyone's situation is different and you will have to learn as you go with respect to catching fish for culling.

                              For the one-week-old fry, about all you can do is dip-net the larger concentrations of fish from around the edges of the pond. You cannot catch them all. If you do not see a lot of black babies (sorry, I'm told these are called kuroko) then its probably not worth fooling with them until they are at least four weeks and about 1 inch long.

                              Catching one-inch fish in a mud pond is possible, but tricky. On occasion, I have been able to trap them with funnel tarps (minnow traps) of one-eighth inch mesh. Usually, this does not work at all and I do not understand why it's so hit-or-miss with the traps. A seine net is much better, but can be dangerous. If there is any string algae or the lead line digs into the mud, you can have the fish rolled up in mud and/or algae when the net is pulled ashore. At this size, it will kill them if they do not come up clean. They are large enough to get out of the way so you will not be stepping on them. However, the footprints you leave in the pond will make it difficult to catch fish on the next pull because they will duck into the footprints and the net will pull over them. Try it with a cheap, lightweight ten-foot minnow seine. The brown ones are lighter, do not scoop up as much mud, but do not last long. The nylon ones from are more expensive, last much longer, but are more prone to scooping up mud. If you are killing fish, then stop and try again a few weeks later.

                              By six weeks there will be some tobi. These are fast growing fish which are much larger than the others. Part of the reason they grow so fast is that they are cannibals and have been eating smaller siblings. You would like to separate these if you can. Try the fine mesh ten-foot seine again and see if you can catch many of them - but you cannot catch all of them. It seems that very few of the tobi will be "keepers". In kohaku spawns, most seem to be solid red, some solid white and a few kohaku. Despite their bad habits, these fish have had a great start in life and have the potential to turn into some of your best.

                              By eight weeks, they may be able to out-run the ten-foot seine; especially the tobi. You may have to move up to a twenty or thirty-foot seine with 1/4 inch mesh and a little more weight. The seine will not catch all of them - ever. You will be tempted to buy a 60-foot seine which will reach all the way across your pond. It won't work. Because of the bow in the seine as it is pulled, you would really need a 80-footer to reach across your pond and still hug the bottom. Small-mesh seines that long are really difficult to pull, especially if the bottom is soft. You also risk stirring up too much of the bottom at one time and depleting the oxygen. Finally, when you get to the other side you may have so much mud, algae and fish rolled up in the net that you cannot pick through and get the fish out before they die. Best to stay with the 20-30 foot net and do not try to drag more than about 10% of the pond area in one pull. Make a pull, collect the fish from the net, cull them, put the keepers in an aerated container, then make another pull. You will find you need a beach umbrella, lots of buckets and tubs, some way to aerate water, and an assortment of dip nets. The cooler and radio are optional.

                              From 8-weeks on, you will be able to catch a few fish with a cast net. Unless they are being gilled in the netting, a cast net can be gentler on the fish. To increase your odds, throw out a hand full of sinking food, wait a few minutes, then cast on that spot.

                              At some point, you will need to drain the pond to collect everything and prepare to start over. A sloped bottom makes the process much easier. You will also need a high volume gas or electric pump so you do not spend a week trying to drain the pond.

                              You need to decide what you will do with the tategoi (keep fish) from eight-weeks on. Will you just throw them back in the pond? If there was another small pond or very large tank to put them in you would not have to keep catching the same fish over and over, and you could spread them out at a lower density so that they grow faster.

                              -steve hopkins

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