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Spawning Shiro Utsuri with a Showa?

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  • Spawning Shiro Utsuri with a Showa?

    If I spawned my Utsuri with my Showa would I get interesting fry or garbage fry? Anyone that can help I'd greatly appreciate it.
    Any input from all of you would be great
    RichLane :D
  • #2

    Hi Rich,


    IMHO, I think interesting fry, who are the breeders of the Shiro and Showa, do you know the bloodline??. you could end up with a very nice Kindai Showa
    Kindest Regards Billy Boy.

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    • #3

      The Utsuri came from Marusho Koi Farm, breeder Shosaku Igarashi, I am not sure where the Showa is from.
      Rich
      RichLane :D

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      • #4

        one concern is that those fry which turn out to be shiro's can carry red that will
        appear later on in life especially if color enhancement food is fed.

        the other side of the coin is that some of the nicest shiro's you will ever see come from showa blood and over the years orange turn to yellow and goes away and you have one very impressive shiro..

        each year with my pair I get tosai shiro with red kuchibeni but dog gone it it always goes away. If it would just stay, I'd keep one even if there was no hope of showing ( it's technically a showa) but it would look wild in a pond for personal enjoyment!
        Dick Benbow

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        • #5

          Ok I will go ahead and let them spawn, I have a little over a month to wait, I will send in some photo's of the fry when all is said and done. And I shall keep my fingers crossed that I get some beauts swimming around in my pond.
          RichLane :D

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          • #6

            This may be a dumb question but how many good koi would you get from cross these two koi as I thought that you would only get junk koi, or most would be anyways. Shot guys, as I was under the impression you need to spawn type to type. Would most of the fry be showa? A little lost here.

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            • #7

              Many Shiro Utsuri on the market are by-products of Showa production... Showa without Hi. These can be very good, although the best Shiro Utsuri are purpose-bred using only Shiro Utsuri parents.

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              • #8

                That is exactly why I asked koigirl, because I didn't know what the outcome with be to breed those 2 together.
                RichLane :D

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                • #9

                  Just for the record in the history of color varieties, shiro's came first. Their black really was not all that good. When mr kobayashi decided to cross kohaku in to begin the start of today's showa color variety the black improved. shiros were left in the dust as a variety and it wasn't until later that shiro's again like the phoenix bird were reconstructed out of the ashes of the new showa blood. This really improved their black. My female from Konishi is from showa bloodline and some of her better tosai carry a yellowish beni until they grow out of it their second year. One I have held on now for three years. it has the best white and black and also the yellow is still hanging on!

                  I wanted to make that point so you understand the background. today's breeders like Omosako and others do cross shiro to shiro.
                  Dick Benbow

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                  • #10

                    So in other words,this would not be a true line of Shiro Utsuri right?

                    Anyway when you do your spawn,keep us posted and take some pics of the koi as I would very much like to see them.

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                    • #11

                      Shiro Utsuri to Showa is the combination that I will be trying this year.

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                      • #12

                        I just love this forum as I learn something new everday. I guess I called that one wrong, and I want to see the koi when they get big enough to see. When you do keep me posted OK.

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                        • #13

                          Greg, please keep us posted as I will do the same to see what happens with this pairing
                          RichLane :D

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                          • #14

                            So, to sum up what Dick was saying -- there is no truly pure line of shiro with good sumi anymore because showa took over for a while then shiro with better sumi was re-developed out of showa.

                            Reminds me of a gorgeous 8 yr old shiro I saw for sale last year. Wondered why it wasn't being kept as breeding material -- the guess from those more experienced than I was that this shiro threw showas in breeding. And probably not very good showas.

                            Doing the showa/shiro cross could end up with lots of interesting fish. I've no idea how you would do the first culling tho'. Do you cull all the non-black fish first, like for old-style showa? Or do you cull all the solid colors first? Obviously there are some that are right out, but the choices are more...

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                            • #15

                              Jason,
                              These koi (both shiro and showa) are first culled at 3 days. After that you wait 40 days and look for the beni pattern. if it's strong and solid it stays. If the shiro is there with so red, it stays. If the color is small and light it stays.

                              Warning: many showa breedings have false black in the tail section area.
                              it covers over the red pattern and as a breeder you may be tempted to off
                              as black is too heavy in the tail with red in head and chest only. take these guys outside and look in the sun for any indication of a tail stop red under the black.

                              have seen many times in their second year when the black crawls back and reveals the much needed red tailstop!
                              Dick Benbow

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