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  • Associating yourself with a dealer a good thing?

    Is associating yourself with a dealer a good thing? I think so, it's not to get the inside track on incoming fish, but a learning experience. How many of us have every helped unload 40 boxes of fish? Most of us never. Has anyone seen how fish come in after a 18 hour journey from the homeland? Most never. Pretty interesting learning experience, most dealers wouldn't let people see behind the curtains....the only thing people see are the fish in the pond already. The learning process never stops with me and if I have the opportunity to help a dealer with a shipment I would, but be it if I was invited...It's a cool experience, hard work and it will show you what your dealer has to go through to make us Koikichi society happy.
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.
  • #2

    Having helped a couple of Dealers do this, plus seen what another dealer does, it was very interesting for me to see how different they dealt with their incoming Koi. In the UK the Koi are often bagged for 24-30 hours and they sometimes look pretty dead. Have actually never seen one die, they all come around!

    Dealer 1 - Floated bags straight out of the boxes into the Dealers ponds. After perhaps 30-minutes, each bag was emptied into a Koi bowl and each Koi lifted up and into the pond. I once helped with 92 boxes of Koi with this dealer, now that was an interesting evening.

    Dealer 2 - Bags emptied straight into a bowl and each Koi lifted straight into pond. No mucking about here, this dealer wanted the Koi into good clean water very quickly.

    Dealer 3 - Emptied the Koi and bag water into large Koi bowls, then added some pond water to acclimatise the Koi. Each bowl was heavily aerated and more water was added until the Koi fully came round, then they were lifted into the pond.
    So which way is the best, 1, 2, or 3? Or does it really matter?????
    Regards, Bob
    ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º>
    <º}}}}>< <º}}}}><

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    • #3

      I hope these dealers have seperate quarantine ponds they put the new arrivals...or did they just put the new arrivals with the old stocks? But, it an interesting to see the dealer side thou right?
      The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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      • #4

        If the ponds are QT ponds then its ok. I believe the best was was the dealers who acculamated the koi done the right thing and getting them into better was was a must. I would say dealer #1 and #3 If the dealers all placed the new koi into the main ponds with koi already in the ponds, none did the koi justice.

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        • #5

          When my koi came in, I did #3, but only because some were already laying on their sides, and the water temp in the bags were 10 degrees lower than my water.
          Attached Files

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          • #6

            Receiving koi after a long trip in a box:

            #1 is normal procedure
            #2 is emrgency procedure (some koi do not move in the bag)
            #3 is a never-nerver procedure!

            During their trip the koi generate quite a bit of ammonia. Considering the little amount of water they're in, the concentration can be elevated. The CO2 of respiration makes the water acidic, thus protecting the koi from the ammonia. Now add alkaline water from a pond (7.4-8.6) to this water, the water becomes alkaline and consequently the ammonia lethal.

            Arthur
            Arthur

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            • #7

              I agree with you on the #3. My mixing of water volumes and subsequent transfering of the koi all happened within about a 5 minute period. Slowly trickle in a 5 gallon bucket of pond water, then another 5 gallons, then another. Then transfer the koi by hand.

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              • #8

                So this is where the term "Bag burn" came from?



                Originally posted by Arthur
                Receiving koi after a long trip in a box:

                #1 is normal procedure
                #2 is emrgency procedure (some koi do not move in the bag)
                #3 is a never-nerver procedure!

                During their trip the koi generate quite a bit of ammonia. Considering the little amount of water they're in, the concentration can be elevated. The CO2 of respiration makes the water acidic, thus protecting the koi from the ammonia. Now add alkaline water from a pond (7.4-8.6) to this water, the water becomes alkaline and consequently the ammonia lethal.

                Arthur
                The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

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                • #9

                  In the bag they don't burn. It's once you transfer them that things go wrong. Like Arthur says, In the bag the acidity is quite low due to CO2 (which is acid) expelled by the fish. At low pH amonnia exists as it's ionic form amonnium. Raising the pH is like dumping a bottle of ammonia into the water. It will kill them dead as a doornail in a few minutes. The amount of amonnia in the bag after a trip from Japan is at times enough to make you eyes sting if you stick your head into it!

                  #3 dumb dumb DUMB!

                  B.Scott
                  Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

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                  • #10

                    I never liked '3' and couldnt undertand it.

                    Suprisingly, '2' is used by the most experienced dealer and one who is extremely knowledgable and well known. I've only assisted once there and it did suprise me that the bags were not floated. If I remember correctly, he said something along the lines that the Koi were already stressed and after a potential 30-hour bag journey, he wanted them out of that water now and into some good clean stuff. He imports some 75cm+ sized Koi and they all get the same 'service'. Have never seen a Koi in a picture at the shop before the import, not alive in his ponds after the import, so it must work!
                    Regards, Bob
                    ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º> ><{{{{º>
                    <º}}}}>< <º}}}}><

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      In general I have always thought that as along as the new water is only slightly higher in temperature there isn't a problem. I would hesitate to place fish in water that was colder however. The former seems to give their system much less of a shock then the later. In a mud pond it is quite natural for fish to move between layers of different temperatures.
                      B.Scott
                      Semper in excreta, sumus solum profundum variat

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                      • #12

                        #2 is typically preferred by those in the know.

                        Aqui -- I'd leap at the chance to help dealers on a regular basis if time permitted.

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                        • #13

                          Originally posted by Bob Hart
                          I never liked '3' and couldnt undertand it.

                          Suprisingly, '2' is used by the most experienced dealer and one who is extremely knowledgable and well known. I've only assisted once there and it did suprise me that the bags were not floated. If I remember correctly, he said something along the lines that the Koi were already stressed and after a potential 30-hour bag journey, he wanted them out of that water now and into some good clean stuff. He imports some 75cm+ sized Koi and they all get the same 'service'. Have never seen a Koi in a picture at the shop before the import, not alive in his ponds after the import, so it must work!
                          #2 was completely correct as long as the bags were the same temp or a LOWER temp than the new tanks. This means they are going into equal, or warmer, water quickly. No problem there at all.
                          Koiphenators $$$$$$ fish were also done in that way by Mark, Graham and I ( pond was warmer than the shipping bagz)
                          If you have ALLOT of boxes and the fish are not stressed, floating is a good way to get all of the dang boxes out of the way so you can handle and check the fish !
                          If the new pond is COLDER than the bags ya can kill them quick and they MUST be floated to cool them down gradually.
                          That may have been the story with number one...

                          #3... um..er... I refrain from calling people b00b on this site. ;-)

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            [QUOTE=JasonS

                            Aqui -- I'd leap at the chance to help dealers on a regular basis if time permitted.[/QUOTE]

                            That's all good, as long as you're not misconstrued as a "koi professional" and not a hobbyist !

                            E

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                            • #15

                              In Japan, more so than anywhere else dealers take the responcibility for the sale and care of their customer's koi. They make home visits, negotoiate prices between buyer and seller and make recomendations to their regular customers
                              on newly arrived koi.

                              here in the states, as in any business relationship, the more exclusively you trade with a dealer the better your chances of building a rappore to help in selection and "deals".

                              In the Uk, I always dealt with one dealer for all my japan travel and purchases over there. I felt he got me into places where I'd never have been able to go.
                              I paid a good price for the service but in general got what i paid for and more.

                              When fish arrive from a shipment, they can be pretty stressed. I've had First place koi from the all japan show keel over in the bag when fish and game opened the box to confirm contents. As already indicated by Arthur, once a bag is opened the ammonia burn begins. A koi can deal with a temperature swing alot better than bad water!

                              When i was first learning about koi I volunteered many a time with our closest dealer to help with shipments. I did learn alot. I'm still learning. About 4-5 years ago i met a wholesaler who had tremendous "luck" with his new arrivals
                              over the others I'd learned from. I now know why. Without giving away his
                              hard earned knowledge it has to do with no mixing! and Direct flights.

                              Recently the most fun I had was showing Lester who posts here how to select tosai and sent him home with a Ochiba he fell in love with that i bred.
                              People were generous to me when i was learning so I always felt i needed to return the favor for others.
                              Dick Benbow

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