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  • cross breeding koi

    Most koi are spawned type to type, and wanted to know why types of koi are ok to cross and what to expect from the spawn, for instance Gin Matsuba to Kohaku.
  • #2

    Koi do not breed true. However, you increase the percentage of usable fish by breeding type to type. You increase the percentges further by breeding within a bloodline. You can cross a kohaku with anything and still get some kohaku offspring.

    It a numbers game. The object of the game is to create as many nice fish as you can with a finite amount of space and effort. Breeding a gin matsuba would be like playing the game with one hand tied behind your back.

    -steve

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    • #3

      If I can anticipate that the reason you chose those two color varieties, is because that's what's available. If so ,for the experience on how to breed... you can pair them. The expectation of results will certainly be low. To know what to look for as they develop will be into unchartered waters!

      a better odd pairing would be a kohaku to another gosanke

      or a matsuba to another Hikari type (mono or moyo) translated that means a bright fish with or without pattern. ie: kujaku, yamabuki, hariwake, platinum.
      Dick Benbow

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      • #4

        koifishgirl,

        Like Dick, I would not recommend a Gin Matsuba-Kohaku pairing: the outcome would be too wild and very difficult to cull for any good results while controlling numbers. In other words, anything good coming out of that pairing would only show late in development.

        I do agree with Dick that pairing it with a hikari-mono could be a good experience resulting in Kin Ki Matsuba (goods ones are rare, with Yamabuki Ogon), Gin Matsuba (some, with Platinum Ogon), etc., also a pairing with Benigoi or even Ginrin Benigoi could be interesting.

        On the other hand pairing with a hikari-moyo could be again too difficult to cull without a lot of experience, thus risking a lot by having to keep fry too long before culling.
        Arthur

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        • #5

          I have a femal kujaku and a male beni kumonryu,also a big male that I dont know what it is, it is not a sanka or a showa, or a aka bekko the koi is red and white and black the white only under its bellie. A very big and pretty koi I just dont know what it is. I have a book that shows all the different types but I come upon some that I still can not tell you what it is.

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          • #6

            Breed that big one (aka sanke) to the kohaku.

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            • #7

              Koifishgirl,
              Do I Have a friend for you......go find Greg Bickal..he has a koi site. He thinks like you think...and breeds koi.

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              • #8

                The female Gin Matsuba is not a large koi so she should not produce that many eggs and I think if I get some good koi if I have to hold on to them for a while it will be ok as I dont plan on doing but just this one spawn this season. I am hopeing for some kujaku koi from this match.
                Could I spawn my female kujaku to my kohaku and if so what would be the end results.

                Luke, I think I will stick with everyone I like what I learn from the different folks on the forum.

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                • #9

                  theres a farm over here that breeds anything together. im sure that they breed some true lines from their best fish but not always. then theres always the chance of mix ups..
                  people get mad becuase they may be buying a kohaku that has come from a different parent and thus making it harder for them to get a high percentage of kohaku when they come to breed it later. it becomes an ethical thing.
                  morally right to breed trues together..

                  the thought of mass spawning is that out of many million koi youd get enough to have some great specimens so you get your money anyway.
                  more of a pain to search though, id reckon. more dissapointments.
                  i have noticed seemingly higher survival rates when crossing out.

                  problem is that the purchaser may not be getting what they thought they were getting. as they think the parent were of the same type.

                  but this is why you guys go for those trueer bloodlines isnt it, and pay big bucks for it. like a dog breeder shows his parents.
                  you pay extra for a well known genetic.
                  i think it doesent matter if kfg outbreeds if shes only got a few brood fish and theyre different, she will be learning other parts of the hobby and that part.

                  i know one guy that stopped buying from a farm because they were crosses, i spose he must have noticed an unusually high variation in the offspring.. if both parents used were from that farm, you might be able to make that call i guess. most likely he just heard something.

                  all the stock i had at the last farm came from japan originally but i dont know where. so the oldest fish there might be true bred from japan. funny how just the thought of such a thing is better to think of. yes thats where they came from.. all those farms and breeders that ive read about on here.. yay!
                  anyone want to buy some fish?lol.
                  i

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                  • #10

                    Got a female kohaku that just spawn the eggs and I used 3 males, one was a blue shushui, light yellow yamabuki ogon and a black one that have an orange belly, don't know if they eggs are going to survive cause this is our first experience and I hope they do survive and see, would be an interesting experience and to learn too, I'll keep you posted, this happend last sunday so I guess we should have fry any moment
                    _____________

                    ZULMA.........

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                    • #11

                      If you end up with more than a handful of offspring, you will need to cull to avoid losses from overcrowding. I think your best hope will be to have the Kohaku-Yamabuki match produce some highly metallic Hariwake. So, when the time comes, I would cull for that. Good luck. Enjoy yourself.

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                      • #12

                        Let's see what happend, just came from outside and they're chasing another kohaku, wondering if all my kohaku are female, just purchased the spawning brushes today @ AES and what we did was put it in the pond just in case, cause we can't even take another female out with male, cause the only tank that we have already have the eggs, so I guess if something happend what we have to do is take the brushes with the eggs out and change the water, nothing else we can do.
                        _____________

                        ZULMA.........

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                        • #13

                          Don't fall prey to the temptation of trying to keep too many. You will experience higher mortality rates if you do and things will go spiraling out of control very quickly.

                          Since this is your first time with this part of the hobby, be attentive to the first batch of eggs and their water as they should be hatching soon. They'll need plenty of attention.

                          As to the activity you have going on in the pond, just let it go. Give your attention to taking care of the water (no doubt things will be a bit smelly and frothy when they're done) and you won't want to feed for a few days. The Koi will eat most of the eggs and you'll just need to do some extra water changes and filter maintenance for a few days.

                          The pairings you described aren't likely to be a good prospect for much in the way of predictability, so you'll be playing a very big guessing game on what the fry will turn out like. Almost all of them will surprise you as they grow out and change but it presents an interesting challenge to guess at what you've got.
                          Larry Iles
                          Oklahoma

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                          • #14

                            Originally posted by PapaBear View Post
                            Don't fall prey to the temptation of trying to keep too many. You will experience higher mortality rates if you do and things will go spiraling out of control very quickly.

                            Since this is your first time with this part of the hobby, be attentive to the first batch of eggs and their water as they should be hatching soon. They'll need plenty of attention.

                            As to the activity you have going on in the pond, just let it go. Give your attention to taking care of the water (no doubt things will be a bit smelly and frothy when they're done) and you won't want to feed for a few days. The Koi will eat most of the eggs and you'll just need to do some extra water changes and filter maintenance for a few days.

                            The pairings you described aren't likely to be a good prospect for much in the way of predictability, so you'll be playing a very big guessing game on what the fry will turn out like. Almost all of them will surprise you as they grow out and change but it presents an interesting challenge to guess at what you've got.

                            Thanks PapaBear and you're right also since is the first time it would be learning time but no doubt is a lot of work and then what to do with so many fish depending on how many live, I'll keep you posted of what happend and of course paying attention to the new ones, maybe forget about futures mating and paying attention to the ones that I have now.
                            _____________

                            ZULMA.........

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                            • #15

                              And, you need to figure out what you are feeding the first 2 weeks when the fry are very tiny. Ideas for feeding egg yolk, liqui-fry commercial food, etc. are in other threads about spawning.

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