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  • #31

    Originally posted by kntry View Post
    I can't really tell anything from the pic. It's not clear enough.

    With all the issues you have going on, you really need someone at your pond, in person. Let's see if we can get that to happen this weekend.
    That would be a blessing!!!

    Comment

    • #32

      Originally posted by obman View Post
      Total 4. The last Tx before today was 3 days ago. I will not add anything else until further advice. Also, I managed to catch one more ill Koi. This one is very dear to me!!!! Please take a look at the lesion on the head
      I can see why that one is dear to you, pretty baby that one.

      IF it is just lesions, it could be it did it on the rocks. When you get the water situation stable and good it should heal up fine.
      did you get the rocks out? in one post said you had, in one said the koi were hidding in the rocks.
      sorry you are having a hard steep learning curve, things will get better as you learn.

      if the rocks are still in the pond wait till someone here or once you have someone on hand tell you it is safe to remove them, they trap all kinds of stuff and it is going to be a toxic task getting them out

      Comment

      • #33

        Originally posted by Meg View Post
        I can see why that one is dear to you, pretty baby that one.

        IF it is just lesions, it could be it did it on the rocks. When you get the water situation stable and good it should heal up fine.
        did you get the rocks out? in one post said you had, in one said the koi were hidding in the rocks.
        sorry you are having a hard steep learning curve, things will get better as you learn.

        if the rocks are still in the pond wait till someone here or once you have someone on hand tell you it is safe to remove them, they trap all kinds of stuff and it is going to be a toxic task getting them out
        I removed 1 truck load of rocks from the pond. However, the lillies and the lotus pots were attached to some rocks and I also used other rocks to support the base as my area has hich wind. The air bubble lines were also anchored to the bottom by some rocks. If you feel necessary, I will get rid of all plants and rocks. Then it will simply be a bare pond, possible better to keep clean. That Koi is not only pretty, it is the last of the whole premium batch that I had. Some of which are very rare. Unfortunately, they were the first ones to die.

        Comment

        • #34

          I see you were given lots of great help today! I do hope you can find a KHA near you and I also think a vet should be brought in because you most likely will need antibiotic injections for the worst ones.
          I wanted to go over a couple things with you that you may or may not already know just to be safe. It is important for it to be as stress free as possible for the koi when you handle them for exams etc. Never lift them out of the water when you net them, they need to always be in water. If you need instructions on how to do this, let us know. If using new water, the water they go into needs to be well aerated for at least 3 hours, close in temperature and PH. Also keep a small air stone going in that tub as well. Stay in the shade. When scraping, go easy, no hard pressure is needed. I believe the rods you saw moving were flexobactor columnaris, it has a haystack appearance-long thin rod, which makes sense with the growth you see in the photos. If you watch the slide for around 15-20 minutes, you'd see them gather together again. This disease worsens and spreads rapidly in warm water, so better not to heat right now in any way. It also worsens in organic laden water, so your KHA will suggest you remove all rocks and plants esp. while treating. Parasites hide in these places and will reinfect. If you return these plants to the pond they will need to be disinfected using something like Potassium promanganate or a bleach solution. Same with any new plants for the rest of their lives.
          Laying over sideways can be many things but commonly it is a symptom of a PH swing. Can you check your PH morning, noon and at dark for one day for me to see if it changes? Plants also increase this swing. PH swings add to their stress hindering them from recovering once you start treatments so we need to get that under control.
          Do you use baking soda or CaCl to buffer or are your KH and GH natural?
          Also what is your salt level now?
          I'd also suggest purchasing medicated koi food and switch to that for 2 weeks.
          Your situation will be tricky to treat. The cottony areas will need to be scraped off gently and disinfected before the Pro Form C will work because Flex buries itself and hooks in the tissue. That's why you saw only temporary relief. They should be sedated when you do this.
          No more new Koi- quarantine any new fish before ever adding to your collection. A good book to purchase is Doc Johnson's Koi health and disease. I like it because it's easy for beginners to understand and has a lot of info on the microscope to help identify parasites.
          Lastly-what color were the gills of the one you pulled today? Pro Form could put them over the edge if they aren't healthy so you may not be able to do an in pond treatment. Sorry again for your troubles, your doing great, hang in there and keep us posted!
          Terri
          Terri Janas
          Master Koi Health Advisor
          Member of
          ZNA Potomac
          MAKC

          Comment

          • #35

            Just wanted to wish you success in the future. We've all gone through a learning curve, and now it seems as though it's your turn.

            You are absolutely doing the best thing now for your fish and I commend you on your willingness to heal them, and improve their environment. When this is behind you and you've got a beautiful pond with a few healthy, thriving koi you will look back on this and share it with someone new that is going down the same path as yourself.


            Best wishes,

            Grant

            Comment

            • #36

              Grant is right.

              Did anyone contact you yet?

              Unless someone can help you in person, listen to Terri. She's awesome and knows what she's talking about.
              The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
              SANDY

              Comment

              • #37

                Originally posted by koiluv View Post
                I see you were given lots of great help today! I do hope you can find a KHA near you and I also think a vet should be brought in because you most likely will need antibiotic injections for the worst ones.
                I wanted to go over a couple things with you that you may or may not already know just to be safe. It is important for it to be as stress free as possible for the koi when you handle them for exams etc. Never lift them out of the water when you net them, they need to always be in water. If you need instructions on how to do this, let us know. If using new water, the water they go into needs to be well aerated for at least 3 hours, close in temperature and PH. Also keep a small air stone going in that tub as well. Stay in the shade. When scraping, go easy, no hard pressure is needed. I believe the rods you saw moving were flexobactor columnaris, it has a haystack appearance-long thin rod, which makes sense with the growth you see in the photos. If you watch the slide for around 15-20 minutes, you'd see them gather together again. This disease worsens and spreads rapidly in warm water, so better not to heat right now in any way. It also worsens in organic laden water, so your KHA will suggest you remove all rocks and plants esp. while treating. Parasites hide in these places and will reinfect. If you return these plants to the pond they will need to be disinfected using something like Potassium promanganate or a bleach solution. Same with any new plants for the rest of their lives.
                Laying over sideways can be many things but commonly it is a symptom of a PH swing. Can you check your PH morning, noon and at dark for one day for me to see if it changes? Plants also increase this swing. PH swings add to their stress hindering them from recovering once you start treatments so we need to get that under control.
                Do you use baking soda or CaCl to buffer or are your KH and GH natural?
                Also what is your salt level now?
                I'd also suggest purchasing medicated koi food and switch to that for 2 weeks.
                Your situation will be tricky to treat. The cottony areas will need to be scraped off gently and disinfected before the Pro Form C will work because Flex buries itself and hooks in the tissue. That's why you saw only temporary relief. They should be sedated when you do this.
                No more new Koi- quarantine any new fish before ever adding to your collection. A good book to purchase is Doc Johnson's Koi health and disease. I like it because it's easy for beginners to understand and has a lot of info on the microscope to help identify parasites.
                Lastly-what color were the gills of the one you pulled today? Pro Form could put them over the edge if they aren't healthy so you may not be able to do an in pond treatment. Sorry again for your troubles, your doing great, hang in there and keep us posted!
                Terri

                Thank you Terri. Your advice is invaluable as I just lost the nicest one when I moved it to quarantine. I was still very strong when I chased it but immediately after I moved it out of water and put in a separate tank with the same water, it went side way for a while then now about to die!! I never realized that I should not net it out of water, even when I was ever so gentle. Well, lesson learned. No wonder most of the fish die shortly after I remove them from the pond, even Kois with minimal signs of disease.

                Again, thank you all for your support. By the time this is over, all of my prized collection will be gone and just the not so nice ones are left. One thing I have noticed also is that the nicer the Kois, for some reasons they die sooner! Just my luck, I guess. The Koi that just died did,'t look so bad except for just a small ulcer wound. Picture attached for your viewing. I sent 2 emails for help to the peolple recommended by this thread but no answer yet. I had also called Nancy twice but all I got was her answering machine. May be this is fate.
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • #38

                  Hard lessons make a lasting impression, but they are not soon forgotten.
                  Stress kills Koi much easier than a person might think, even if they "appear" otherwise in fair condition. That is why keeping them in water makes such a big difference as it removes one source of stress to their system during even a short transport to or from a hospital tank.
                  Often when Koi have a few small issues going on that you can see on the surface there are also invisible (to the naked eye) problems going on inside that are weakening the fish as well. In a situation like that all it takes is one more thing to put them over the edge. Hopefully this experience will offer you the chance to learn some things that will prevent you from having to re-live anything like this in the future and I'm getting the impression that you are a fast and willing learner
                  Larry Iles
                  Oklahoma

                  Comment

                  • #39

                    Thanks for the compliment Sandy, you are pretty terrific yourself! It's tough to help when we aren't there and can't see things in person, but best to help as much as we can if the owner is willing and he seems motivated which is nice to see.
                    Obman, There are more reasons why they passed shortly after catching them than lifting them out of water. Also there are reasons why the better ones seem to go first and you see barely any symptoms on some. All this is related to the condition of the gills. They can tell you more than the body does often and whether they have the capacity to heal themselves. Some probably came to you with gill damage. Columnaris being a secondary infection can also attack the gills and usually it is after some parasite like trich or flukes has damaged them leaving them inflamed and vulnerable. The gills supply the oxygen transfer to the body and then there is a chain of events. When over taxed by catching, increased blood pressure or gill damage too far gone, they can't survive. Basically they suffocate, systems shut down, very sad. It's pretty certain to me without being there, that there is damage.
                    But the good news is, fish heal amazingly well in good water and have incredible capacity to heal, even gills can if not too damaged. Did you happen to take a look at the gills yesterday? If so can you describe them, color,were they uniform in shape? That can tell us a lot right there.
                    One other thing, from the pond photos, it doesn't quite look like
                    3,000 gal to me, but hard to tell from a photo. Did you meter in the water and was it after the rocks and plants were in there? Just wanted to check because it's important to know when dosing. These chems we use can burn gill tissue if overdosed and your still going to need to treat the survivors you have.
                    Terri
                    Terri Janas
                    Master Koi Health Advisor
                    Member of
                    ZNA Potomac
                    MAKC

                    Comment

                    • #40

                      David is a Doctor, and he has scraped and scooped the fish, he is 100% certain that it is columnaris. He has 50 koi in his 3500 gallon pond. He has a lava rock filter, which is not large enough for his pond size and fish population. He has excessive muck on the bottom of his pond, he did remove many of the rocks, which I am sure while he was removing them, released toxins in the water, which where under all those rocks.

                      He will be buying a vac to clean the bottom of the pond, he undstands that he needs to get his water in pristine conditions. and that he is way over stocked in fish, and under filtered.


                      Also, his QT tank is a 45 gallon rubbermade container, with no fitration or pump.. I think he now undertands that this is NOT a qt..

                      Comment

                      • #41

                        Originally posted by koiluv View Post
                        Thanks for the compliment Sandy, you are pretty terrific yourself! It's tough to help when we aren't there and can't see things in person, but best to help as much as we can if the owner is willing and he seems motivated which is nice to see.
                        Obman, There are more reasons why they passed shortly after catching them than lifting them out of water. Also there are reasons why the better ones seem to go first and you see barely any symptoms on some. All this is related to the condition of the gills. They can tell you more than the body does often and whether they have the capacity to heal themselves. Some probably came to you with gill damage. Columnaris being a secondary infection can also attack the gills and usually it is after some parasite like trich or flukes has damaged them leaving them inflamed and vulnerable. The gills supply the oxygen transfer to the body and then there is a chain of events. When over taxed by catching, increased blood pressure or gill damage too far gone, they can't survive. Basically they suffocate, systems shut down, very sad. It's pretty certain to me without being there, that there is damage.
                        But the good news is, fish heal amazingly well in good water and have incredible capacity to heal, even gills can if not too damaged. Did you happen to take a look at the gills yesterday? If so can you describe them, color,were they uniform in shape? That can tell us a lot right there.
                        One other thing, from the pond photos, it doesn't quite look like
                        3,000 gal to me, but hard to tell from a photo. Did you meter in the water and was it after the rocks and plants were in there? Just wanted to check because it's important to know when dosing. These chems we use can burn gill tissue if overdosed and your still going to need to treat the survivors you have.
                        Terri
                        Terri,
                        I whole-heartedly agree with everything you have said since the beginning of this thread. You are awesome . There are 2 fishes died. The gills don't look too bad, still light pink, minimal if any, white patches that I can see, no tearing, pictures attached although not that clear. 3 additional Kois got infected and have obvious ulcers and some cotton balls lesions. I leave them alone as I don't want them to die sooner than they have to. I have established the diagnosis of Ich intial infection and subsequent superinfection with Columnaris. The fishes that died were also induced by stress from me! I have also removed all Hyacints. I plan to remove all the rest of water plants and clear the pond tomorrow as I don't want to stress the Kois at this point. The pond was estimated by calculation, I did not meter the water. The calculation came out to be 3700 but I adjusted to 3000 gal. There is a tunnel from that pond to a much smaller pond to the left. I think that can be a breeding ground for parasite/bacteria and I may close it off permanently once I have a KHA look at it. In the mean time, what should I give the Kois to curb off the rampant Columnaris infection? Please give me some pointers. I have come to accept the fact that I am losing/have lost all the good breed ones.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • #42

                          Update:
                          one of the 3 new sick ones just went belly up. Gill exam shows significant necrosis/ulceration (picture attached). Slide preparation from the gill is negative. Slide from the body ulceration shows numerous fast swimming rods organisms. I am certain that this is Flexibacter Columnaris. Now, If I can find some Tetracycline, Kanamycin, Maracyn, or even sulfa for fish. Anyone knows the sources?
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • #43

                            Hi,
                            The photo is blurry but I can tell you the color is not right. How long after death were these photos taken? That makes a difference. The color should be dark meat red almost the color of blood. The filaments look clubbed and or swollen together, not clear distinct filaments. Because of the uniformity meaning the same look, it almost looks like chemical damage as opposed to parasites. You may have overdosed the pro form or not using enough dechlor, so we do need to meter in the water or maybe the kha when there can take measurements and get a closer gallonage.

                            Here's some questions to help me help you until help arrives.
                            Did you ever use Potassium promanganate or any other chemical you can think of? (the place they came from may have used it as well)
                            Is there chlorine in your tap water and what product do you use to treat it?
                            What is your salt level?
                            How long after death were the photos taken?
                            Can you get a live Koi and without lifting them, get a quick peek at the gill color to see if they are pink too?
                            Do you use baking soda or any GH hardener?
                            What are your tap readings for KH and GH and PH and ammonia?
                            We need to find out if there's a PH swing. Have you been checking PH throughout the day?
                            That's all I can think of for now. Terri

                            Edit OK the new photo gives me more to go on. That is definitely parasitic and the color is not good. Give me a minute to write another post and in the mean time answer some of those questions.
                            Terri Janas
                            Master Koi Health Advisor
                            Member of
                            ZNA Potomac
                            MAKC

                            Comment

                            • #44

                              Edit
                              OK the new photo gives me more to go on. That is definitely parasitic and the color is not good. Give me a minute to write another post and in the mean time answer some of those questions if you can.
                              Terri Janas
                              Master Koi Health Advisor
                              Member of
                              ZNA Potomac
                              MAKC

                              Comment

                              • #45

                                This is tough.....The gill color is pale so that tells us he's not taking in enough oxygen, too much damage has been done. As I think on this the damage could have also been from cycling a new pond, the ammonia sky rockets the first 2 months and can cause this. If they all look like that one does, unfortunately, you may not be able to save anybody. They probably won't even survive the stress of catching them and giving them antibiotics. We can't add chems right now because that decreases the oxygen in the water and adds to the inflammation and would also put them over the edge. Here's what I would do as a last resort, I would take all the plants out and increase the salt level all the way up to .6%. That's pretty darn high but it would offer immediate help to them and kill off many parasites. It would need to be done in increments of .2% a day and you need to closely monitor the ammonia and make sure it stays at zero and it's covered with ammonia detox. If they start to feel better around .3%-.4% then stop there. Do you have a salt kit to do this? You want to go slow and monitor them as you go and judge by their behavior when to stop. If there's a club near by they may be able to lend you show tanks to put them in with the salt, but you need to keep a filter on it or use a product like Ultimate while they are in there. Needs heavy aeration too.
                                Then I'd watch and wait to see if the gills start to heal and show a better color. If they do, then we can proceed differently. Your thoughts?Terri
                                Terri Janas
                                Master Koi Health Advisor
                                Member of
                                ZNA Potomac
                                MAKC

                                Comment

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