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Stress In Tancho Kohaku

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  • Stress In Tancho Kohaku

    Perhaps it is my imagination, but it seems to me that Tancho Kohaku exhibit stress more readily than many other varieties. I particularly note red blood vessels in the surface of the skin along the upper dorsal flanks. I observed this with a Tancho I kept for several years, ones I've seen in show tanks and recently in pics in a magazine of show winners in Japan from 1980s (when the pics were not as "professional" as they are today). Or, is it simply that all that white skin makes the stress signs more notable?

    Have others sensed the same? Thoughts on why it might be?
  • #2

    Hey Mike, aren't people taking a greater risk of buying a Tancho and it losing the Tancho? But you are right on the stress factor of the fish thou.
    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

    Comment

    • #3

      Aquitori:

      Your quote: Hey Mike, aren't people taking a greater risk of buying a Tancho and it losing the Tancho?"

      You may want to check with the Man from NC.(Brady B)...I bought two Tancho Sankes from him and they look great...It's also my understanding that his stock don't loose the Tancho...

      You may want to check it out and buy domestic for this type...

      Aloha! the older Mike

      Comment

      • #4

        Aren't many/most tancho from a normal kohaku spawn (or sanke spawn)? I see a lot of fish which are almost tancho but have a stray bit of hi somewhere which makes them just a kohaku with a very poor pattern. I am going to be really surprised when you guys tell me that there is a structural difference in the shiro of a tancho and normal kohaku, or that one is more likely than the other to blush. Whether there is a difference or not, no one can deny that "all that white skin makes the stress signs more notable?"

        How would a tancho know that he/she is not shiro muji?

        -steve hopkins

        Comment

        • #5

          Mike-


          I have one Tancho. My son bought it at the Louisville show at a little auction that Ray Abell put on where he donated to the club the proceeds. The high bidder had the choice of any of the 5-6 inch fish in that particular tank. My son selected a Tancho that had a little secondary hi. The fish has done great over the last three years and is 24 inches, great body, female and is probably the "most improved" fish I have. The secondary hi left long ago and the tancho spot while not perfectly round is as thick as can be.

          However, as you state, the fish shows stress in the shiro areas of the body. Every water change I see it. She does look good in a show on day 2 and 3. This is the only fish in my pond that does this.

          Mike Pfeffer
          Mike Pfeffer
          Northern Midwest ZNA show
          June 19 - 20, 2010
          Season's Garden Nursery
          Fishers, IN

          Comment

          • #6

            Hi Mike, I have the same problem with a Goromo, each time that something change in the pond, I can see the blood vessels on the white part of the skin, but only for a few hours.
            I saw a picture in a book of these blood vessels and the autour explain that it was due to the stress, and the koi was a tancho kohaku .....
            I will try to scan the picture later and send it to you.

            Comment

            • #7

              Pools within pools,...

              What we have to keep in mind with Koi is there are little genetic pools within gene pools,... a parent set often contains several distinct mini groupings of "genes" that show up as distinct characteristics in and among the hundreds of offspring,... so in a group of Kohaku offspring some can be Tancho and carry with the "tancho" pattern skin that is thin and shows stress and bloodvessels easily,... so we would see this in a lot of tanchos, because they are historically coming from the same "line" though from different breeders. Also, Tancho Koi that can or do lose the tancho marking easily are coming from a same "line" bred somewhere way in the past, but continuing to appear from Kohaku pairings.

              So the reason we see so many Tanchos with red streaks AND so many Tanchos that lose their red pattern is because of historic lines reappearing.

              Best Wishes,
              Brady Brandwood

              Comment

              • #8

                I've always considered Tanchos and Shiro utsuri, the "canary in the coal mine".
                Both will stress very easily when things are not to their liking.

                most nisai and older do well retaining their tancho unless the water is really poor
                with high PH. The reputation of losing comes from tancho tosai immediately following shipment ( and the stress thereof )
                Dick Benbow

                Comment

                • #9

                  So Brady, what do you consider to be the best Tancho bloodline out there? I mean I have had everything else but a Tancho.....

                  Originally posted by Brady Brandwood
                  What we have to keep in mind with Koi is there are little genetic pools within gene pools,... a parent set often contains several distinct mini groupings of "genes" that show up as distinct characteristics in and among the hundreds of offspring,... so in a group of Kohaku offspring some can be Tancho and carry with the "tancho" pattern skin that is thin and shows stress and bloodvessels easily,... so we would see this in a lot of tanchos, because they are historically coming from the same "line" though from different breeders. Also, Tancho Koi that can or do lose the tancho marking easily are coming from a same "line" bred somewhere way in the past, but continuing to appear from Kohaku pairings.

                  So the reason we see so many Tanchos with red streaks AND so many Tanchos that lose their red pattern is because of historic lines reappearing.

                  Best Wishes,
                  Brady Brandwood
                  The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Brady: I've noticed that some Tancho are simply white koi with Hi on the head. But others are distinctive in the thickness of the Hi causing the maruten to be slightly raised ... vaguely analogous to the "cap" on an Oranda, although not nearly so enlarged. However, all of that sort that I have seen in person are more a pale cream-yellow, rather than pure white. Never have been able to identify a particular breeder as a source for such fish. Seems more a random occurrence among lines?

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      I don't know that tancho can be deliberately bred. I do know some breeders that produce more than others. I hear there was a breeder in hammatsu that had it down pretty close with his one pair to almost all tancho.

                      I could tell you stories of a manufacturing plant in a certain big breeder's facility where tancho's were created and 'repaired" but then he have to pay me a visit.
                      (had a friend walk in there by mistake and was immediatelky removed! )
                      Dick Benbow

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Pools,...

                        What I'm speaking of are small groupings of "types" - if we imagine 200,000 fry from a Kohaku pairing,... we may have 20 to 40 Tancho Kohakus in that group,... now, if we pull out those 20 to 40 Tanchos and look at only them we would be able to break those 20 to 40 down into smaller groupings, each having like or distinct characteristics,... such as one group will have skin that is prone to showing veins during stress,... one grouping of "purple red" type that is prone to losing its red coloration,... and one grouping that takes the more modern genes of the Mother or Father, and so on. Tanchos are rare and sell easily so breeders don't cull out the ones with inferior skin types like they would a Kohaku,... they sell them. So, where these poor characteristics aren't acceptable in Kohaku culling, the Tanchos among the group are kept - demand is larger than supply. Breeders have to work to move these "types" forward in order for the ratios to change,... and Tancho is not a type that has been paid much attention - so we often see "old" characteristics in them,... such as thin skin that is prone to showing veins when stressed.

                        Best Wishes,
                        Brady Brandwood

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          Very logical, Brady.

                          BTW, those Tancho you posted above .... impressive.

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