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If scaleless koi are "koi" then so are Long fins

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  • If scaleless koi are "koi" then so are Long fins

    Now right now within the hobby there is no reasoning as to what is a koi and what is not....

    Did you know the common carp is not a koi? why is that? Do you believe they aren't because genetically Koi are different? And you believe that?... that is a lot of Carp Crap.
    So then if a common carp is not a koi the koi world allows Breeders to take non-koi and breed them with koi and the result is "koi."
    Breedrs can even brag about bringing in different genes from NON-koi to make their line of koi structurally different and larger by introducing genes from "Non-koi"?

    But some of you can reason and will be thinking the "koiness" of a koi can be improved by adding strong genes from wild non-koi, and the resulting cross is even more what a koi is supposed to be. (Hang onto that pearl of wisdom when I add doitsu to the argument)

    Yet the genes introduced to establish the long-fin made "koi" a more attractive and hardier fish to many people so ...OH NO WAIT LOOK THOSE GENEs DISTORTED THE STANDARD IMAGE OF WHAT IS KOI...a long finned koi cannot be a koi because even if it is 99.99% koi it does not look "koi."


    OK if we go with the "Standardized Image of what it is to be a Koi", How the hell can the Koi hobby recognize Doitsu?

    And the craziest of things is the doitsu koi loose MORE of the aspect of The Standardized Koi Image that is considered of great beauty and integral to what is koi, and that is how the scalation is both beautiful and a challenge when creating the next improvement in koi...Remove the scales and you do NOT have "koi" if when the fins become longer you do not have koi.
    The silliness of allowing Doitsu into the show tank before they got an understanding of what they had done was just a blind error made in the distant past. Back then the hobby was unprepared to protect the image of what was a koi, and Doitsu were another pretty thing to play with in the genetic mix of what could be done with the REAL koi. And before anyone knew it the scaleless camel had his whole scaleless body in the tent.
    yet here is where the hobby needs to look at itself and either to clean up the image of what is a koi by removing Doitsu from consideration as koi, or allow both doitsu and long fins into the Show tent.
    Ah but there is even more...Doitsu were allowed in when the hobby was new, and more bling was what the breeders were chasing.... Since then the hobby morphed, and its emphasis both in breeding and appreciation has morphed from "Bling" to an appreciation of "Quality."
    So doitsu are koi? and Long fins are not? Yet Doitsu look less like koi than long fins do, especially to those that appreciate the real beauty of koi.... scales... the way the color and pattern are able to express themselves through and with them...and even just the scalation itself.

    Doitsu OUT
    or Long fins IN.
    Last edited by luke frisbee; 12-03-2009, 11:00 AM.
  • #2

    Neither ZNA, AKCA or other koi hobbist organizations agree. Such judging rules as we have in the States from AKCA for longfins clearly keep them seperated.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

    Comment

    • #3

      Originally posted by luke frisbee View Post
      Now right now within the hobby there is no reasoning as to what is a koi and what is not....

      Wrong again Luke. There are specific judging standards as to what a koi is.

      Did you know the common carp is not a koi? why is that? Do you believe they aren't because genetically Koi are different? And you believe that?... that is a lot of Carp Crap.

      Wrong again Luke, see above, same answer.

      So then if a common carp is not a koi the koi world allows Breeders to take non-koi and breed them with koi and the result is "koi."
      Breedrs can even brag about bringing in different genes from NON-koi to make their line of koi structurally different and larger by introducing genes from "Non-koi"?

      But some of you can reason and will be thinking the "koiness" of a koi can be improved by adding strong genes from wild non-koi, and the resulting cross is even more what a koi is supposed to be. (Hang onto that pearl of wisdom when I add doitsu to the argument)

      Yet the genes introduced to establish the long-fin made "koi" a more attractive and hardier fish to many people so ...OH NO WAIT LOOK THOSE GENEs DISTORTED THE STANDARD IMAGE OF WHAT IS KOI...a long finned koi cannot be a koi because even if it is 99.99% koi it does not look "koi."


      OK if we go with the "Standardized Image of what it is to be a Koi", How the hell can the Koi hobby recognize Doitsu?

      And the craziest of things is the doitsu koi loose MORE of the aspect of The Standardized Koi Image that is considered of great beauty and integral to what is koi, and that is how the scalation is both beautiful and a challenge when creating the next improvement in koi...Remove the scales and you do NOT have "koi" if when the fins become longer you do not have koi.

      Doitsu koi have the same body comformation (including finnage), Longfins do not.

      The silliness of allowing Doitsu into the show tank before they got an understanding of what they had done was just a blind error made in the distant past. Back then the hobby was unprepared to protect the image of what was a koi, and Doitsu were another pretty thing to play with in the genetic mix of what could be done with the REAL koi. And before anyone knew it the scaleless camel had his whole scaleless body in the tent.
      yet here is where the hobby needs to look at itself and either to clean up the image of what is a koi by removing Doitsu from consideration as koi, or allow both doitsu and long fins into the Show tent.
      Ah but there is even more...Doitsu were allowed in when the hobby was new, and more bling was what the breeders were chasing.... Since then the hobby morphed, and its emphasis both in breeding and appreciation has morphed from "Bling" to an appreciation of "Quality."
      So doitsu are koi? and Long fins are not? Yet Doitsu look less like koi than long fins do, especially to those that appreciate the real beauty of koi.... scales... the way the color and pattern are able to express themselves through and with them...and even just the scalation itself.

      Doitsu OUT
      or Long fins IN.
      The actual silliness is you believing your logic holds higher regard than those who actually make the determination....the Japanese...afterall, Nishikigoi are their invention. When you can invent something, then you can make the determination of what is and what does not fall within your definition.


      Steve
      The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
      CKHPA

      Comment

      • #4

        If if's and but's were candy and nuts we would all have a very Merry Christmas
        Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

        Comment

        • #5

          Strange how all that is standing between longfins being called a koi is a good pair of scissors...

          I have eyes and can form my own opinion beyond what the Japanese tell me. Longfins and doistu are koi, just different varieties than standard. IMO to say differently is to demote the hard work of the breeders of these varieties- foreign and domestic.

          ~Raymond.

          Comment

          • #6

            Originally posted by RayJordan View Post
            If if's and but's were candy and nuts we would all have a very Merry Christmas
            LOL Ray . . .

            I'll see yours and raise you:

            'If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride!'
            Don Chandler
            Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

            Comment

            • #7

              "Doitsu koi have the same body comformation (including finnage), Longfins do not."
              ---Steve Childers

              Sometimes you amaze me, and you're a qualified judge? Doitsu are known for NOT having the same body conformation as Scaled koi..when one does it is often proclaimed superior to the doitsu with the normal body shape.
              They are judged by the same conformation standard, and there is an attempt made by breeders to improve the Body conformation of Doitsu and that is all.

              As to the the two little quotes... there is logic in my assessment of how poorly the "Standard of what is a koi" was done when the gatekeepers let doitsu in..and a silly little quote does not change that.

              I do appreciate both of you (actually all three of you) showing your ignorance and inability to do anything other than listen and obey..well accept you Childers..you don't even understand Doitsu, which are said to be koi.
              There is hope for the hobby because at least none of the people that have shown to be intelligent and capable of applying logic to the Quandary created by Doitsu in Long fins out" have been flippant about it.


              Doitsu are not koi if long fins are not koi except for the fact that long ago no one was able to man up and proclaim that koi should remain koi.

              I'm not saying that long fins should be admitted to the "koi Circle". I am not saying that Doitsu should be thrown out...what i am saying is that the leadership within the hobby can't figure out their koi from a hole in the ground...
              The reason one is a koi and one isn't is based merely on a decision which was NOT based on whether a fish was a koi or not. If that were the case then Doitsu would have never been allowed.
              Its skin AND body conformation WERE completely different when it was allowed to be called "koi." Longfin body conformation is also becoming mor koi like just as would be expected as an additional trait is bred into a population and then the specimens displaying the desired trait are then bred to meet the standard in other regards.
              To not be able to recognize the above is Ok, Some people can not apply reason, others can't do anything but repeat what they are told.

              Comment

              • #8

                and Now i know i am right... i like it when these three are on the other side of the fence..I'd be worried if they weren't. They are an example of why the hobby is in the mess it is in when it comes to "doitsu Yes long fins No".

                Comment

                • #9

                  OK if perhaps this analogy will help. Lets look at dog shows. We can use as an example the dachshund. There is a specific breed standard body shape. A long body and short legs. Over time the ancstors of all dogs were inbred to produce specific recognized breeds. The orginal dachshund was bred with different breeds until today it has two recognized types of coats: smooth and long-haired. However the body shape has remained consistent. It remained a dachshund.

                  Now lets pretend someone decided to cross a dachshund with a whippet. The new cross was really cute and a very nice dog but it had a different body shape and legs too long to conform to the dachshund standard and legs to short to conform to the whippet standards.

                  They decide to name the new cross a "long legged" dachshund. They claim it is a dachshound because it has a smooth coat. The coat is what is important to be a dacshund not the body/leg lenght claim the lovers of the "long legged" dachshund. The Dog show organizers say it is not a dachshund and cannot be shown in a dog show to compete with dachshunds. The lovers of the new "long legged dachshunds cry foul and claim the dog show organizers are stupid and their mothers wear army boots. etc. etc. etc.

                  Now, does any of this sound familiar???
                  Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

                  Comment

                  • #10

                    Originally posted by RayJordan View Post
                    OK if perhaps this analogy will help. Lets look at dog shows. We can use as an example the dachshund. There is a specific breed standard body shape. A long body and short legs. Over time the ancstors of all dogs were inbred to produce specific recognized breeds. The orginal dachshund was bred with different breeds until today it has two recognized types of coats: smooth and long-haired. However the body shape has remained consistent. It remained a dachshund.

                    Now lets pretend someone decided to cross a dachshund with a whippet. The new cross was really cute and a very nice dog but it had a different body shape and legs too long to conform to the dachshund standard and legs to short to conform to the whippet standards.

                    They decide to name the new cross a "long legged" dachshund. They claim it is a dachshound because it has a smooth coat. The coat is what is important to be a dacshund not the body/leg lenght claim the lovers of the "long legged" dachshund. The Dog show organizers say it is not a dachshund and cannot be shown in a dog show to compete with dachshunds. The lovers of the new "long legged dachshunds cry foul and claim the dog show organizers are stupid and their mothers wear army boots. etc. etc. etc.

                    Now, does any of this sound familiar???
                    not to be a pill, but why can there be long haired and smooth haired Dachsund and not standard and long fin koi?

                    I mean ... you're saying that skin, though the largest and most visable organ on the creature can be whatever it like, but apendages must be held to a higher standard?

                    Comment

                    • #11

                      Originally posted by RayJordan View Post
                      OK if perhaps this analogy will help. Lets look at dog shows. We can use as an example the dachshund. There is a specific breed standard body shape. A long body and short legs. Over time the ancstors of all dogs were inbred to produce specific recognized breeds. The orginal dachshund was bred with different breeds until today it has two recognized types of coats: smooth and long-haired. However the body shape has remained consistent. It remained a dachshund.

                      Now lets pretend someone decided to cross a dachshund with a whippet. The new cross was really cute and a very nice dog but it had a different body shape and legs too long to conform to the dachshund standard and legs to short to conform to the whippet standards.

                      They decide to name the new cross a "long legged" dachshund. They claim it is a dachshound because it has a smooth coat. The coat is what is important to be a dacshund not the body/leg lenght claim the lovers of the "long legged" dachshund. The Dog show organizers say it is not a dachshund and cannot be shown in a dog show to compete with dachshunds. The lovers of the new "long legged dachshunds cry foul and claim the dog show organizers are stupid and their mothers wear army boots. etc. etc. etc.

                      Now, does any of this sound familiar???
                      yeah i could totally agree with you Ray, But the same people in charge of that dog show that won't let long-lregged dachsunds in will allow Hairless dacsunds to be shown.
                      now do you see the illogical stand the "dog show" has taken?

                      Comment

                      • #12

                        Originally posted by luke frisbee View Post
                        [COLOR=
                        Doitsu are not koi if long fins are not koi except for the fact that long ago no one was able to man up and proclaim that koi should remain koi.
                        I actually agree with you on this aspect, Luke. But two errors would not make it right. All the reasons Doitsu need to be judged separately lead to the conclusion that they should be seen as outside the circle. (And the lethal doitsu genes support the conclusion as well. Definitely not an improvement on Nature, but an unnatural defect.) However, as so often occurs in human endeavors, the past mistake is impossible to correct. So, let's keep encouraging the breeders to 'improve' Doitsu by making them as much like nishikigoi as they can, so the error grates on the eyes as little as possible.

                        Comment

                        • #13

                          No, it would make more sense to allow hairless dachshunds in the dachshund breed competition than to allow a whip-hund to compete. But that is up to the organizations that make those decisions.

                          It is the body shape and fins that are a key defining breed standard on koi not the scales. the recognized standard body shape and fins for nishikigoi is different from the slimmer longer orginal wild carp and different from crossed breeds with fins that are longer or shorter than the koi standard.

                          You can dislike the logic that says doitsu koi can be judged at a koi show vs regular scaled koi and excludes long fin koi. However, to continue to refuse to acknowledge there is a logic based reason for excluding long finned koi from being judged head to head against regular koi is to refuse understanding of the koi show body shape and fin standards.
                          Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

                          Comment

                          • #14

                            I wonder what the Mercedes dealer will think when I proclaim my Dodge Pickup as the newest form of Mercedes Sedan?

                            Oops, I bet Luke already beat me to that proclamation...Dang It.

                            Steve
                            The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
                            CKHPA

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Originally posted by MikeM View Post
                              I actually agree with you on this aspect, Luke. But two errors would not make it right. All the reasons Doitsu need to be judged separately lead to the conclusion that they should be seen as outside the circle. (And the lethal doitsu genes support the conclusion as well. Definitely not an improvement on Nature, but an unnatural defect.) However, as so often occurs in human endeavors, the past mistake is impossible to correct. So, let's keep encouraging the breeders to 'improve' Doitsu by making them as much like nishikigoi as they can, so the error grates on the eyes as little as possible.
                              Mikem
                              two wrongs do not make a right, neither does continuing a wrong..if there is enough of a sentiment that Doitsu can remain as "koi." then the same can be ( um "Will Be") true of long fins if they are allowed to stick around long enough.
                              i am all for either resolution... become a hobby that has a specific limitation or not... we can't be both.

                              Imagine going to a koi show and just having koi at it...or imagine going to a koi show and it is like a dog show...the new breeds can not compete for best dog, but they do recognize many breeds.
                              it seems like when the hobby was younger "koi" were the "big fish we ate but now have some interesting coloration." nd since the germans definitely bred their koi to be eaten the "German Carp" was allowed into the show tent. I'd have liked to been there and witnessed the same thing that is happening NOW with Long fins being done with German Carp back then...can you imagine some guy showing up with a scaleless koi, can you fathom the disruption in the show tent..the arguing, the firm resolution of the "purists" and the new energy of having a new breed to play with? There must have been quite a furor over allowing a colored Skinless GERMAN carp in koi shows.
                              I wonder if german carp were even judged when they first appeared...could they have been brought by the impure, the defiled, the low-based hobbyists and breeders that were chasing after the almighty yen? Probably, and German carp were considered "NOT KOI."
                              So are Long fins going to have to go through the same Social evolution? I think it might be a healthy behavior of the hobby. The behavior of NOT accepting new "Types of koi" (yeah i said it, you might as well get used to it if koi are to survive...types or BREEDS of koi). The Human race has never settled for just one type of anything....and "koi" are going go through the evolution of ALL domestic animals...be it rabbits, hamsters, cats, dogs, hamsters, guinea pigs, horses, cows, sheep, chickens, ducks, geese, parakeets, ..am i missing any? of course I am.... if an animal has come under the genetic control of humans it has been changed into multiple breeds if it has been around long enough..
                              to deny the progression of a domestic animal from "wild to mild to variety" is to be a fool...
                              But back to the hobby's behavior and stances when talking about German KOI and Long fin KOI... The behavior of acceptance has a progression and that is a good thing..first it is posturing and denial thta there can be another Breed of koi, and that is good otherwise all the assinine modifications would be new "Breeds"..it is enough of a pain in the azz to deal with all the juvenile new coloration patterns that are the next great beautiful awesome wonderful spectacular lovely got-to-have-it variety.
                              So long fin koi lovers stick to your guns if long fins are able to have enough merit to have their supporters for a long enough time the hobby will admit them as koi eventually.
                              the Proof....German Carp.

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